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The act of writing about others is not a

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trivial act. It's not entertainment.

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It's not a distraction.

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You don't read non-fiction for the same

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reason that you chew gum or watch the

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Kardashians on television.

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You read it because you're in search of

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something powerful and fundamental

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about what it means to be a better

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person.

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I've never done a class like this

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before. Um, and I thought it would be

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really fun to do because, uh, it's a

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chance for me to reflect on my career,

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which is at this point is

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almost too long. Really, really long.

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and help other people who want to who

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would like to pursue a similar kind of

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um uh line of work. One thing I want you

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to take away from this class is um the

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idea of writing as a calling. It's uh an

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activity that has a uh a higher purpose.

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It's part of the way in which uh we

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fulfill ourselves as human beings. um uh

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both in the words that we write and in

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the words that we read. So over the

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course of these classes

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uh we're going to talk about my career.

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Uh we're going to talk about uh where I

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get ideas. We're going to talk about the

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techniques I use in my writing about

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puzzles and tools and the virtues of

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withholding information, suspense. Um,

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I'm going to talk about what I'm not

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good at as a writer and how I compensate

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for that. Uh, I'm going to talk about

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writers that I love and what I learn

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from them. Um, I'm going to talk about

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what's satisfying to me about the work

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that I do. Um, and I'm going to try and

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translate some of the insights I think I

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have

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uh, gleaned from my years of writing in

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a form that I hope that you listening,

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watching can use.

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I'm Malcolm Gladwell and this is my

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master class.

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So, I like to do puzzles as a child,

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jigsaw puzzles,

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but um but I always uh I always uh

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wondered why I liked doing jigsaw

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puzzles. It's not obvious why. To this

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day, I find jigsaw puzzles baffling for

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this very reason. I am drawn to them and

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I see other people are drawn to them. In

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fact,

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this summer my family took a big

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vacation. There was a incredibly

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complicated jigsaw puzzle and it was we

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were in the French countryside. It was

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gorgeous. There was like castles. There

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were walks to do and huge numbers of

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hours were spent in this kind of dark

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and dingy living room of this house we

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were in working on a puzzle that we

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could have worked on anywhere. Right.

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The puzzle was more fascinating to us

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than the French countryside. Now, that's

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pretty powerful stuff, right? That

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suggests there's something about a

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puzzle that is that has a hold over our

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imagination in a way that's not obvious.

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I mean, simply putting pieces together.

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And by the way, the puzzle is not even a

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grand like there are certain kinds of

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challenges that draw you in because

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there is a reasonable chance the problem

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can't be solved. A puzzle, there's a

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100% chance it can be solved. It was

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once a full In fact, you have the

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picture in front of you, right? So, it's

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not even like it's some magical kind of

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high-end

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Einstein level problem you're dealing

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with. No, no, no. It's a problem that

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has been solved for you and they've

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given you a picture and all you have to

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do is like, so but even that draws you

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in, right? So it's like that is I guess

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how strongly some of us are hardwired to

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want to just make the pieces fit. And I

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think on some level the write writing or

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at least my kind of writing is about

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making the pieces fit. So, I have like I

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have my little shelf of objects and I

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want to arrange them in a way that's

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compelling to readers and it's the same

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it gives me the same kind of

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satisfaction

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as finishing a puzzle does except that I

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don't have the picture in front of me

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from the very beginning. I have to kind

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of construct the picture. So, it's a

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little, you know, maybe it's a little

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bit higher order puzzle, but it has it

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satisfies

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it satisfies me in the same way.

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There's a thing in puzzles where

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the there are pieces that don't actually

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fit, but you convince yourself that they

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fit, right? like and then you look and

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you realize it's like a little tiny gap

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and there shouldn't be a gap and it

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isn't quite well. The one thing with

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writing is that you can you can actually

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if they don't naturally fit, you can

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kind of make them fit just by the way

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you write the by you can kind of write

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your way out of the problem. And that

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always I was I'm always that part is

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always really

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um uh fun to me and it's a reminder of

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this really important principle which is

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that

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um

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the best kind of arguments are the

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arguments that are imperfect

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because the perfect argument is too

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obvious. It's like saying that the rule

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of the simile

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or the analogy

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actually the rule of the analogy is that

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the two things that you are analogizing

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are not identical right um to the extent

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they are too identical the analogy is

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useless if I say macintosh apples are a

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lot like

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delicious red delicious apples I haven't

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helped you that doesn't that's kind of

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absurd analogy, right? If I say apples

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are kind of like oranges,

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that's actually sort of interesting

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because we have a phrase that says

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apples and oranges when we're talking

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about how things are very different. But

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in fact, apples and oranges have a a lot

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in common. So if I can say actually, if

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you think about it, apples have a lot in

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common with oranges. Now we're kind of

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now my interest is peaked. It's an it's

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a very imperfect analogy that and that's

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what draws you in is the imperfection

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and in writing and in constructing

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puzzles the puzzle you don't necessarily

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want the puzzle to be perfect at the

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end. You want it to be a little bit odd

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because that's what makes attracts

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people's attention and that's what makes

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them want to talk about it.

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Right? So if you listen to the way

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people talk about things, they will talk

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about objects of art, things they've

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watched, read, seen, heard, they're

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drawn to the things that are done really

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well, but they're also drawn to the

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things that are done imperfectly. And

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they may actually t spend more time

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talking about the imperfect things that

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rubbed them a certain way, maybe rubbed

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them the wrong way, or maybe got stuck

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in their head somehow. right? That

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didn't didn't go down the way they were

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supposed to go down. That's what you

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return to. And that's you want to as a

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writer, you want that response. You want

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to kind of um do something that uh that

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irritates the reader in a kind of in a

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kind of m not in a not in a serious way,

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but in a mild way. that you know that

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the way that when you put red pepper on

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something, the red pepper taste is a

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little bit it's um it's a little bit

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kind of harsh and it sticks in your

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in your throat a little bit longer,

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right? There's an aftertaste. That's

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what you want. You want aftertaste and

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that comes from not everything

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being perfectly blended together and all

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of the pieces fitting so wonderfully

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that it looks at the end like a

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photograph. Um you know the question is

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what is interesting? That's the question

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that has to drive

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uh writing any kind of creative act.

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What do people find interesting? What

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does the writer find interesting? And

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what you find interesting is not

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perfection.

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I don't think it's necessarily a problem

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for writers to make promises they don't

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keep.

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And if you talk to people who write

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movies, they're obsessed with this.

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They're always they always talk about

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then you should never create an

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expectation that you don't fi fulfill.

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If you if the listener, the viewer or

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what have you has a sense that a a

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character has some dimension, you pro,

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you know, or you promise some kind of

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plot thing, you have to deliver or the

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person will walk away feeling cheated. I

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I sort of wonder about that. People who

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say that have this impulse to be neat

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and tidy. They think being neat and tidy

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is the goal of a narrative. And I don't.

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I think that it's fine for narratives to

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be a little bit um messy. That I'm much

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more interested in um the idea that

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someone might work through a problem

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imperfectly or

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or or even fail at the tasks they've set

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out to do, but if the failure is

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interesting, I'm fine with it. It

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strikes me as being it goes back to what

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I was saying about how being interesting

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is the most important um is the most

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important goal. So being complete or

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being um truthful to your intentions are

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not the same as being interesting. So if

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if if it's more interesting to be to go

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down a kind of messy um dead-end road,

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fine.

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One of the criminologists that I'm

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talking to at the moment, he was asked

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back in the 70s when he was working for

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the British government to investigate

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why certain schools for delinquent kids

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um why kids were running away. They were

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like, you know, either they would run

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home or they were these are these are

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kind of institutions. they would run

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away, they would go home, or they would

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just like take off. Some he was trying

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to figure out why. So he would he went

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to the schools and he interviewed all

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the kids who ran away and tried to see

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was there something about their

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personality. Was there something about

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and finally he realizes, oh, he's

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barking up the wrong tree. You looked at

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the data on all of the

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schools of for delinquent kids in all of

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all over England and realized there were

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some schools where kids always ran away

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from and some schools where kids never

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ran away from. In other words, it wasn't

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the kids, it was the schools. So he he's

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writing this article about this. He's

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describing his thought process and it's

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how he came to believe that as human

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beings we spend far too much time

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thinking about how people's personality

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affects their decisions and not enough

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time thinking about how their context

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affects their decisions. So he's

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describing all this and you're waiting

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for him to say and this is what caused

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this is the reason why some schools are

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00:12:23,839 --> 00:12:28,160
so terrible that kids want to run away.

271
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,920
Right? You want the answer. What is it

272
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,440
that makes kids want to run away from

273
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,560
some schools and not others? He never

274
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:37,200
gives it. He says, "And then just as I

275
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:39,360
was about to finish that research

276
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:42,000
project, I was called away to another

277
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:45,040
project and never figured out why some

278
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:46,720
schools caused high rates of and like

279
00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,120
you're you're a reader at this point.

280
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,440
You know, you're 3,000 words in to this

281
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,360
story from like 30 years ago. And if

282
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,440
you've made it that far, you totally

283
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,839
want to know, right?" And he's like, "I

284
00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,959
never found out what." And my point is

285
00:12:57,839 --> 00:13:04,560
like you're frustrated, but that that's

286
00:13:00,959 --> 00:13:06,560
the thing I'm talking about now, right?

287
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:08,160
The thing that made me remember that

288
00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:11,839
story is the fact the story is

289
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:13,200
incomplete. So I spent the rest I I got

290
00:13:11,839 --> 00:13:14,800
that far and I was like, well, what what

291
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,240
was it? And then I found myself randomly

292
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,920
this morning thinking, what could it

293
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,839
have been? I keep returning to the

294
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,600
puzzle, right? Because the puzzle piece

295
00:13:19,839 --> 00:13:23,440
didn't fit perfectly. And I was worrying

296
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:26,399
it and thinking about it and wondering

297
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:30,480
where that's the virtue that that

298
00:13:26,399 --> 00:13:32,480
argument is incomplete. He never he

299
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,399
never finished the thought. But it's

300
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,839
interesting and it's interesting because

301
00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:37,760
he what he did essentially is he

302
00:13:35,839 --> 00:13:40,240
transferred responsibility for the

303
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,760
puzzle from him to the reader. you

304
00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,480
basically say you figured out I don't

305
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:47,040
know I got a job somewhere else right

306
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:50,959
you know and it's sort of that's a a

307
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:54,000
beautiful example of the of the peculiar

308
00:13:50,959 --> 00:13:57,000
power of the imperfect

309
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,000
puzzle

310
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,440
I used to regularly have lunch with this

311
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:08,399
guy who was actually the brother of one

312
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:10,959
of the people in the BC boys and he was

313
00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:12,240
in the grocery business and he was super

314
00:14:10,959 --> 00:14:16,399
interesting. We would just talk about

315
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:20,399
groceries. He was also interested in he

316
00:14:16,399 --> 00:14:22,800
was the America's leading expert on um

317
00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:25,680
on uh

318
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:27,760
uh coupons, the coupons you would get in

319
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,639
the groceries. He was the guy who he was

320
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,240
the the brains behind

321
00:14:30,639 --> 00:14:34,560
coupons.

322
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,880
Who should get coupons? How much should

323
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:38,560
coupons be? How often should you give

324
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,320
them out? I mean, that was his whole

325
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,480
thing. Anyway, he was super interesting

326
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,959
and we would have lunch like every six

327
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,120
months and we would talk about it.

328
00:14:44,959 --> 00:14:49,279
Anyway, he once said this thing to me

329
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,600
about ketchup. He was like, you know,

330
00:14:49,279 --> 00:14:53,760
every single condiment

331
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:56,800
in a grocery store has been reinvented

332
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:59,199
except ketchup.

333
00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,920
Mustard went a million different ways.

334
00:14:59,199 --> 00:15:04,079
There's 10 different kinds of salt.

335
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,399
There's a zillion vinegar, but there's

336
00:15:04,079 --> 00:15:08,959
really only heights, right? And he was

337
00:15:06,399 --> 00:15:11,920
like, and people, millions of dollars

338
00:15:08,959 --> 00:15:14,959
have been spent over the years trying to

339
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,120
do to ketchup what was done to mustard,

340
00:15:14,959 --> 00:15:20,800
and no one's ever succeeded. Ketchup

341
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:24,320
stands alone. He just is the is the

342
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:25,680
Goliath of the condiment aisle. Everyone

343
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,760
else has been broken into a million

344
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:31,040
pieces. So I thought, that's a really

345
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,639
good story. So I began to report the

346
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,880
story and I found and I met this guy

347
00:15:32,639 --> 00:15:38,160
named Howard Moscow who is this

348
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:39,760
hilarious character who was the guy who

349
00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,440
was

350
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,040
he was the guy who figured out how to

351
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,800
break stuff. He was the guy who figured

352
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:48,160
out that there should be seven different

353
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:50,079
kinds of spaghetti sauce, not one. Or

354
00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,880
there should be he was the guy who

355
00:15:50,079 --> 00:15:55,360
figured out how to make you know there

356
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:57,279
used to be just Pepsi. And the question

357
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,560
was if you well can we do other kinds of

358
00:15:57,279 --> 00:16:00,720
Pepsis and he was the guy who figured

359
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:03,600
out how to do diet Pepsi and how to do

360
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:06,000
because by the way diet Pepsi as Howard

361
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,839
explains is really hard problem. So you

362
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,279
have standard Pepsi we all like Pepsi or

363
00:16:07,839 --> 00:16:11,519
we all like Coke. You want to do Diet

364
00:16:09,279 --> 00:16:14,560
Coke.

365
00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:17,199
How sweet should Diet Coke be? Ever

366
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,199
thought about that? Like

367
00:16:17,199 --> 00:16:22,320
you you're starting from scratch. It has

368
00:16:19,199 --> 00:16:25,360
to be Cokey cuz it's Diet Coke. It's got

369
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:28,000
to resemble Coke. But there's no history

370
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:31,519
or pattern or heritage. You're starting

371
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:34,560
what should it be 10% sweet, 9% sweet,

372
00:16:31,519 --> 00:16:36,320
8% sweet. So you have to if you're Coke,

373
00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,120
you got to answer that question. Anyway,

374
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,800
he was the guy you called.

375
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,440
So I spent all this time with him. He

376
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:46,000
was hilarious. He kept a parrot. He read

377
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:49,199
like Thusidities in the Greek. I mean,

378
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,279
he was just this sort of weird one in a

379
00:16:49,199 --> 00:16:53,519
million kind of guy. Everything that

380
00:16:51,279 --> 00:16:55,920
came out of his mouth was funny.

381
00:16:53,519 --> 00:17:00,560
everything without any. So I hung out

382
00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:04,319
with Howard for like days, taped

383
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:06,799
everything, just had the time of my life

384
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:08,480
and realized when I was finished that

385
00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:11,199
everything Howard had told me had almost

386
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,799
nothing to do with ketchup. He had no

387
00:17:11,199 --> 00:17:16,319
interest in ketchup. He hadn't worked on

388
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:17,760
ketchup. In fact, everything he did was

389
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:19,520
about the opposite of the ketchup

390
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:22,319
problem. He was the guy who figured out

391
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,079
how to break one condiment into 10

392
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:26,640
different pieces. He wasn't the guy who

393
00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:28,400
figured out why ketchup alone was the

394
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,799
one condiment that couldn't be broken

395
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:33,440
into 10,000 pieces. So, I had spent all

396
00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:35,280
my time with a guy who didn't at all

397
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,280
support my argument or help my argument

398
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,280
or advance my argument. So, I was like,

399
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:42,799
what do I do? Do I do I write another

400
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,400
piece about Howard Mosquitz? Maybe.

401
00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:46,559
Do I just leave him out? No, that's

402
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,840
criminal. Why don't I just write the

403
00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:49,200
piece and have a whole chunk about

404
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,640
Howard and then at the end of it say,

405
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,400
"And by the way, Howard doesn't help us

406
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,640
understand the ketchup problem." And so

407
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,320
if you read that piece, it starts about

408
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,280
ketchup and then I just go in for

409
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,880
thousands of words on Howard Moscowitz.

410
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,120
You fall in love with Howard Wasquitz.

411
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,760
And then I say, "And Howard, the most

412
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:08,240
brilliant man in all of the grocery

413
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:11,520
store aisles, can't help us solve the

414
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:13,600
ketchup problem. It's totally imperfect,

415
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,160
right? But it doesn't matter." Why?

416
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,799
because it's interesting and because I

417
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:21,840
want it in a way in a weird kind of way

418
00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:25,760
the best way for me to convince you that

419
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:28,559
the that ketchup really is a puzzling,

420
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,880
deeply convoluted, impossible to solve

421
00:18:28,559 --> 00:18:32,240
problem is to present to you the

422
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,320
smartest man in the world of food and

423
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,400
say, "Not even Howard Moscowitz can

424
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,640
solve this problem." And by the way,

425
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:42,640
don't worry that I've just wasted, you

426
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:45,760
know, 3,000 words of your time on a

427
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,919
digression because if we can't solve the

428
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:52,200
problem, all we can do is digress,

429
00:18:47,919 --> 00:18:52,200
right? That's all that's left to us.

430
00:18:55,760 --> 00:19:01,840
Whenever I write anything,

431
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:04,480
I break everything I write into sections

432
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,240
and I number the sections.

433
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,520
Even if when the article finally

434
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:10,080
appears, the book finally appears, they

435
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,679
take the numbers out.

436
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,240
But

437
00:19:11,679 --> 00:19:16,720
the minute you think that way, writing

438
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,760
things becomes way easier because you

439
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:22,720
can solve the problem of transitions

440
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:25,440
just by numbering sections. So you don't

441
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,039
need one of the biggest problems that

442
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,760
people have in organizing a piece of

443
00:19:27,039 --> 00:19:32,320
writing is I want to switch. I want to

444
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:35,200
move from A to B, right? How do I move

445
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:38,160
from A to B? what connects A to B and

446
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,799
you so you construct all this language

447
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,160
often clumsy that basically says okay

448
00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:44,799
we're done talking about this and now

449
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:47,840
we're going to talk about this and I

450
00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:50,080
don't do that I just say when I'm done

451
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,880
talking about it I end the section and

452
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,960
then I just put two and I start the new

453
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:58,320
thing and I can refer back to the other

454
00:19:54,960 --> 00:20:01,120
thing but the reader is fine just signal

455
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:04,160
to the reader that this thought is

456
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:07,039
finished trust me the next thought will

457
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,880
be connected. We'll figure that out. But

458
00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:11,600
for the time being, just we're

459
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,600
restarting here and we're I'm opening a

460
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,039
new window on the browser and we're

461
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,039
going to talk about this for a while.

462
00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:19,360
Right? You can do that. You know,

463
00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:22,000
structure

464
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:24,080
is your friend. You don't have to not

465
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,799
everything has to be done with language.

466
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:29,360
You can just do two, three, four. Every

467
00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:31,919
single thing I have written. I

468
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:33,520
discovered this because I read I was

469
00:20:31,919 --> 00:20:36,320
roommates

470
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:38,080
when I was 21 years old with a man who

471
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,240
was still one of my best friends, Jacob,

472
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:43,600
and he was taking a year off from

473
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:45,200
college and he was writing a paper

474
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,120
for like English class that he hadn't

475
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,120
handed in. And I looked at it and I saw

476
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,799
that he numbered sections. It never

477
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:53,360
occurred to me before. I was like, "Oh

478
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:55,520
my god, that changes everything." And

479
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:59,799
ever since then, every single thing I

480
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,799
have ever written has numbered sections.

481
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:11,200
I spend a lot of time in a lot of my

482
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:14,400
pieces uh sketching out some kind of

483
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:18,240
theory or framework for the task at

484
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:21,760
hand. So I give you tools

485
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:23,200
to to follow along or to think like I'm

486
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,520
thinking or think like the people I'm

487
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:29,039
writing about how they think. And I

488
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:32,000
always feel like the provision of tools

489
00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:34,720
is one of the things that compels people

490
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,559
forward. So I introduce I say, "Let's

491
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,679
we're going to tell we're going to I'm

492
00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:41,120
going to tell you a really fun story

493
00:21:37,679 --> 00:21:43,360
about X." And then I pause and I say,

494
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:45,520
"Okay, but in order to understand this

495
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,840
story, you're going to need to carry the

496
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,760
following tools. Here's what they are.

497
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,600
Here's how they work. Here's the theory

498
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,760
that explains them." And once I've given

499
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:57,200
you a tool, your natural next question

500
00:21:53,760 --> 00:22:00,320
is okay, I want to use it. Now that I've

501
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:02,159
given you, you know, in this thing I was

502
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,760
been writing right now is a very

503
00:22:02,159 --> 00:22:06,320
distinct there's a very beautiful

504
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,080
distinction between displacement and

505
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,559
coupling.

506
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,840
They're separate things. They don't has

507
00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:13,280
no meaning to you outside of the

508
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,640
context. But I tell you this whole story

509
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,640
and I say, okay, there's two there's

510
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,960
these two categories. displacement

511
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,400
coupling

512
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,400
and your you know your natural

513
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,919
inclination is towards one and very

514
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:28,240
often the truth is the other and the in

515
00:22:25,919 --> 00:22:29,760
it may not work but the intention is

516
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,320
that once I've given you this little

517
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:35,120
framework and then I play a little game

518
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:38,080
in which I I give you a scenario and I

519
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:40,000
say well which do you think it is

520
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,120
and then that's a kind of break from our

521
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,720
narrative and then I go back to the

522
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:43,840
narrative but now you've gone back and

523
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,840
you've got this you've learned this

524
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,799
shiny new you I've given you this shiny

525
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:51,360
tool and you want to use it, right? And

526
00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:54,880
I my hope is that that desire to use the

527
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:57,840
tool keeps you going. The reader needs a

528
00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:00,000
tool sometimes to want to keep going.

529
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,799
So, give them one. Come up with a fun

530
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,480
one, you know, and everyone doesn't

531
00:23:02,799 --> 00:23:06,720
People don't mind a little time out to

532
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,799
kind of learn the rules of the game and

533
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,799
then they'll plunge back in with renewed

534
00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:11,799
enthusiasm.

535
00:23:15,919 --> 00:23:20,799
People mistakenly think of data as

536
00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:23,520
boring,

537
00:23:20,799 --> 00:23:26,480
but in truth, again, I I hate to bring

538
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:29,120
everything back to my childhood, but

539
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:31,440
as a kid, what do you notice about data?

540
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:34,559
What are your first what's your as a

541
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:38,400
kid, your first exposure to data is the

542
00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:41,840
grade you get on a test, right? That's

543
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,120
data. Now, in my I think I don't think

544
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,640
they do this anymore, but when I was a

545
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:49,760
kid in my little rural Canadian um uh

546
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,760
town, you would sit in a classroom

547
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,280
according to your grade on the last

548
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,799
test.

549
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,480
So, the person with the highest grade

550
00:23:54,799 --> 00:23:57,840
would sit in the far lefthand corner.

551
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,720
Person with the lowest grade would sit

552
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:03,840
in the front right hand corner. That is

553
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:06,799
a that's first of all, that's inhumane

554
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:10,240
and horrible, but it's also that's a

555
00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:11,760
chart, right? It's a physical chart. And

556
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,559
what do you discover when you do that?

557
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:17,039
That kids are enormously interested in

558
00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:18,240
the chart. They enormous they talk about

559
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:20,960
it. They're obsessed with it. They get

560
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,799
upset over it. They're creates enormous

561
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:25,200
excitement. So a group of people who if

562
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:26,960
you ask them, are you into data? They

563
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,679
would always say no. Why would I be into

564
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,919
data? In fact, keenly interested in data

565
00:24:29,679 --> 00:24:35,760
when it is about something that they're

566
00:24:31,919 --> 00:24:38,640
connected to. So similarly,

567
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,320
I was a runner as a kid and then what

568
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,799
would happen back then is you'd be at

569
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,799
the meet, you'd run your race and then

570
00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:46,080
half an hour later they would put up the

571
00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:48,559
results of the race on the bulletin

572
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,960
board and everyone would gather around

573
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:53,200
and stare forever at the results. Well,

574
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,799
what are the results? That's data. And

575
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,880
everybody was fascinated by it and we

576
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:58,960
would take the pages home and they would

577
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,440
give us copies and we would put them in

578
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,440
our scrapbooks and we would fetishize

579
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,880
them and talk about them. So like this

580
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,320
notion that we're not interested in data

581
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:10,720
is if you've had your eyes open from the

582
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,640
earliest beginnings completely false.

583
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,760
The issue is do we have a connection to

584
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:18,799
it? And so all you need to do is create

585
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:22,000
a connection. People need a reason to

586
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:23,679
look at a low a row of numbers. Um and a

587
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,320
better reason than they need just to

588
00:25:23,679 --> 00:25:27,600
read a story. I'll pick up a thriller

589
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,679
and read it without knowing much about

590
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:33,360
it because I know it's a thriller and it

591
00:25:29,679 --> 00:25:37,200
promises great things. Will I pick up a

592
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:39,520
book of statistics of charts and graphs

593
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,200
without some strong reason to? No. I

594
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,480
need a I need someone to explain to me

595
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:47,840
why it matters. But if it's a book of

596
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:50,159
the results of races that all of my peer

597
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,679
group ran in the same year I was running

598
00:25:50,159 --> 00:25:53,679
races, will I pick it up? Totally.

599
00:25:51,679 --> 00:25:56,240
Because I know what it means. You know,

600
00:25:53,679 --> 00:25:58,880
will the kids obsess over the chart that

601
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,960
is their classroom in fifth grade math

602
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,279
class? Yes, they will. Right? it's

603
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:07,360
matters. So you just need to take the

604
00:26:03,279 --> 00:26:08,720
time to set it up. So I will use charts

605
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:11,679
and graphs in my writing all the time,

606
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:15,360
but only when I've told you a story as

607
00:26:11,679 --> 00:26:17,679
to why the chart and graph is meaningful

608
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:20,240
and how to read the chart and graph. And

609
00:26:17,679 --> 00:26:22,559
some of the times what I do is I'll

610
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:25,600
break it up. A chart might be, think

611
00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:28,320
about a classic chart, 10 rows by 10

612
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:31,200
rows, right? So a hundred different

613
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,799
numbers on a grid. Well, don't give

614
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,840
people the hundred different numbers all

615
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:37,919
at once. Give them one row, 10, and say,

616
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,520
'Now think about what that means. Then I

617
00:26:37,919 --> 00:26:41,279
give them two rows, and they say, "Okay,

618
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,679
now compare that row to the other row."

619
00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:46,000
And then maybe five pages later, I give

620
00:26:43,679 --> 00:26:48,000
them all 10 rows at once, and they know

621
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,279
what they're looking at now, right? And

622
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,120
they're like, "Oh, I can see the

623
00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:53,679
pattern." And then maybe you represent

624
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:55,600
it in a different way with a graph, and

625
00:26:53,679 --> 00:26:58,159
you say, "Actually, it's better to see

626
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:01,039
it. You can see it. You can see that row

627
00:26:58,159 --> 00:27:03,440
of numbers differently. and more in a

628
00:27:01,039 --> 00:27:05,200
more you can have an insight into what

629
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,159
it means if I show it to you this way.

630
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,799
Right? So there's you know in under

631
00:27:08,159 --> 00:27:13,679
those circumstances everyone

632
00:27:10,799 --> 00:27:17,279
likes numbers. It's just a matter of of

633
00:27:13,679 --> 00:27:21,960
preparing the um preparing the reader

634
00:27:17,279 --> 00:27:21,960
for for to appreciate them.

635
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,559
From time to time in my writing, in

636
00:27:27,919 --> 00:27:33,360
conversations with my editors, we have

637
00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:36,240
talked about this notion of candy, about

638
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:37,840
the treats that you need to give your

639
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,320
audience.

640
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,240
And

641
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,799
uh I think it's important to understand

642
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:48,640
that the there's a difference between

643
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:50,320
the meal and the treat. And that

644
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,240
corresponds to a difference in the way

645
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,880
that people talk about things and think

646
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:57,120
about things. So, for the longest time,

647
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,520
I've noticed that when

648
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:02,000
people are in casual conversation about

649
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:05,840
something they have consumed, whether

650
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:08,640
it's a meal, a movie, a book,

651
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:10,240
a song,

652
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,120
they don't talk about it the same way

653
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:15,200
they think about it

654
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:18,399
for a good reason. The way you think

655
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:21,200
about something, it's complicated, may

656
00:28:18,399 --> 00:28:23,360
have many different parts. It may be

657
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,640
contradictory in certain ways in ways

658
00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:28,320
that you're trying to resolve or maybe

659
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:30,399
not resolve you. Large parts of your

660
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,440
understanding on a deep level of some

661
00:28:30,399 --> 00:28:36,960
work of art may may be outside of your

662
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,279
ability to explain to articulate.

663
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,360
Um but the things that you talk about

664
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:44,399
when you've consumed something are the

665
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,919
things you can talk about. the things

666
00:28:44,399 --> 00:28:48,000
that come to mind, the things that you

667
00:28:45,919 --> 00:28:49,600
remember, the things you can express,

668
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,679
the things that can be talked about in a

669
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,440
short period of time. Because how long

670
00:28:51,679 --> 00:28:55,760
do you have the stage in a conversation?

671
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:57,840
Not that long, right? Maybe you're just

672
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,919
pausing and chatting with somebody. So

673
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:03,360
what do you do? Well, you represent in

674
00:28:59,919 --> 00:29:05,520
conversation a little snippet of the

675
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,679
thing you've consumed, which is not the

676
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,320
same thing as the way you think about

677
00:29:07,679 --> 00:29:13,039
the thing you've consumed. So once you

678
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,399
understand that talking about something

679
00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:16,399
and thinking about something are

680
00:29:14,399 --> 00:29:18,559
different categories, then you say, "Oh,

681
00:29:16,399 --> 00:29:20,240
my task as a writer is to give you

682
00:29:18,559 --> 00:29:22,159
something to think about, but also

683
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:26,159
something to talk about, and they may

684
00:29:22,159 --> 00:29:29,360
not be the same." And so candy in a

685
00:29:26,159 --> 00:29:32,559
story is stuff for people to talk about.

686
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,880
It's the fun stuff. And then the meal is

687
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:38,080
the things that they dwell on and take

688
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:41,200
home with them and process on a much

689
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,360
more meaningful level. And it's totally

690
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,279
fine to have candy as long as you have a

691
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:49,120
main meal, right? As long as you have

692
00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:52,640
the the the entree. Um it's a bad idea

693
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:55,039
to have candy and no entree, but also a

694
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,399
bad idea to have an entree and no candy,

695
00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:58,799
right? You want people to talk about

696
00:29:56,399 --> 00:30:02,399
stuff because the conversation in the

697
00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:05,360
elevator in which candy is explained is

698
00:30:02,399 --> 00:30:07,679
the entree point for the other person to

699
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,320
go and

700
00:30:07,679 --> 00:30:12,399
and sample your work and be introduced

701
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,880
to it. And the other person, by the way,

702
00:30:12,399 --> 00:30:18,480
when someone shares candy to you, when

703
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:20,799
they say you were of a movie,

704
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:23,600
you might say in the elevator, I just

705
00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:27,520
saw this movie last night. there's this

706
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:30,720
one scene or the woman who plays the

707
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,240
mother is unreal.

708
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,080
You're not suggesting that's the only

709
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,919
reason you like the movie. What you're

710
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,640
saying is in this time and place where I

711
00:30:35,919 --> 00:30:40,080
have 10 seconds with you and I'm trying

712
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,679
to convince you to watch the movie,

713
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,880
that's my best way of convincing you.

714
00:30:41,679 --> 00:30:46,640
That's the candy. This So, it is

715
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,559
understood when I say the woman who

716
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,640
plays the mother is unreal. It's

717
00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:52,320
understood that what I mean to say is

718
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,159
this is one of many things about this

719
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,679
movie that I loved and this is the one

720
00:30:54,159 --> 00:30:59,600
that just comes to mind. Right? Well, in

721
00:30:57,679 --> 00:31:02,880
writing, why not if if that's the way

722
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,799
people communicate, then serve that

723
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,279
need. Give them little moments, give

724
00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:09,360
them little digressions that can be

725
00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:11,919
represented in the elevator that will

726
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:15,279
help them kind of sell their piece to

727
00:31:11,919 --> 00:31:17,760
their friends or um give them the

728
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:21,760
opportunity to pleasurably talk about

729
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:24,760
what they've just um uh committed to or

730
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,760
consumed.

731
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,520
I love as candy the little thing where

732
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,000
you're talking about someone then you

733
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,760
say

734
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:42,000
in parenthesis

735
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:44,960
by the way so and so is the same person

736
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:48,480
as the person who did this or so and

737
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:50,080
so's mother was and then I it's someone

738
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,200
you knew in a total different context.

739
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:57,600
You do some little quirky

740
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:59,600
biographical fact that kind of

741
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,799
people like, "Oh, really? That's so

742
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,640
weird. I had no idea." You know, there's

743
00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:04,480
that kind of thing. The other kind of

744
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,880
candy, another kind of candy, I did one

745
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,360
I did this in David and Goliath.

746
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:12,640
I have a section in David and Goliath

747
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:15,760
where I talk about what's called the

748
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,360
CRT which is

749
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,679
is there was an attempt by psychologists

750
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,799
to come up with the shortest possible

751
00:32:19,679 --> 00:32:24,640
intelligence test. So most intelligence

752
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:26,640
tests have 100 questions. So the

753
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,120
question was raised can I have a test

754
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:31,120
with three questions

755
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,399
which is a reasonably good predictor of

756
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,000
your intelligence or maybe two

757
00:32:32,399 --> 00:32:35,360
questions. It's never going to be as

758
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:38,000
good as the one that's 100 questions.

759
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:42,159
But is there a way to really

760
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,399
zero in on something that's so

761
00:32:42,159 --> 00:32:46,720
simple yet sophisticated that it can

762
00:32:44,399 --> 00:32:49,200
measure something as crucial and as

763
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,840
unwieldy as intelligence? So there was a

764
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,039
whole campaign to come up with one. And

765
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,360
people came up with something called the

766
00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:57,760
CRT, which was a series of very, very

767
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,080
simple kind of brain teasers which do a

768
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,480
pretty good job of letting you know how

769
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:05,360
intelligent someone is. Well, then there

770
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,279
was a joke version of this

771
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:10,080
that involved two famous psychologists

772
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:12,080
called Conorman and Tverki and people

773
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:15,120
would say the people who were engaged in

774
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,799
the shortest coming up with the shortest

775
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:20,080
possible intelligence test of all time

776
00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:22,880
had a joke version which was the really

777
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:26,080
the shortest of all intelligence tests

778
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,080
and is about this guy Tverki and Tverki

779
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,159
was famously the most brilliant man who

780
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,640
ever lived. So the shortest intelligence

781
00:33:30,159 --> 00:33:34,240
test in the world is

782
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,039
uh after you have had a conversation

783
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:38,159
with Tverki, how long does it while

784
00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:40,320
you're having a conversation with

785
00:33:38,159 --> 00:33:41,919
Tverki, how long does it take you to

786
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,919
understand that Terski is smarter than

787
00:33:41,919 --> 00:33:47,440
you? That's the shortest intelligence

788
00:33:43,919 --> 00:33:49,360
test of all time, right? So

789
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,200
in the context of a discussion about how

790
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,480
short intelligence tests can be, that's

791
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:57,840
kind of funny. So I put that as a

792
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,760
footnote in the page. That's candy.

793
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,880
doesn't serve any function. It's kind of

794
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:05,440
hilarious. And if you you know the long

795
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,519
Oh, and the the answer is and the longer

796
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,480
it takes you to understand that Tiverki

797
00:34:07,519 --> 00:34:12,399
is smarter than you, the dumber you are,

798
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,119
right? That's the intelligence test.

799
00:34:12,399 --> 00:34:18,159
Real simple. We measure it in seconds.

800
00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:19,599
Um that's candy. You know, maybe you'll

801
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:23,280
read the footnote, maybe you won't. If

802
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:24,639
you do, you'll tell that joke, I hope,

803
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,000
the next time you're at a party and

804
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,159
they'll say, "Where did you hear that?"

805
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:32,240
Oh, in this book I'm reading, David and

806
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:35,119
Goliath. Um, so yeah, I do I do make a

807
00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:40,280
practice sometimes of inserting uh candy

808
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:40,280
into uh into the things I'm writing.

809
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:55,359
I have a very good friend who does this

810
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,839
thing which drives me crazy, which is

811
00:34:55,359 --> 00:35:00,560
that when you

812
00:34:57,839 --> 00:35:02,240
say something to her

813
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,800
and you're pretty sure you're telling

814
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:06,720
her something interesting and new, she

815
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,599
will always act as if she knew it all

816
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:12,160
along or that it's not a surprise. She

817
00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:13,680
will essentially say, "Yes, of course."

818
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:18,000
And

819
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:19,280
that a makes it makes me unwilling to

820
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,920
tell her other interesting things

821
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:24,160
because I don't get the reward. The

822
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,640
reason we tell people funny interesting

823
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,400
stories is we want the reward of them

824
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:31,280
having that look on their face and and

825
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,280
being surprised and being pleased at

826
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,520
hearing something new. And there is no

827
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,480
greater encouragement than me going

828
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:41,119
really that's amazing right? That keeps

829
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,760
you going. As a writer, your job is to

830
00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:46,800
get people to keep going. So just even

831
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:50,560
if you don't feel it, even if you've

832
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:54,160
heard it before, you need to say, "Wow,

833
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:56,880
right, you need to practice that that uh

834
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:59,359
openness in the face of someone taking

835
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,800
the risk of telling you a story." Right?

836
00:35:59,359 --> 00:36:04,880
A story in conversation is a risk. I am

837
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,480
taking I am telling you something

838
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,359
without knowing whether you're going to

839
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,599
how it will be uh greeted whether you'll

840
00:36:09,359 --> 00:36:13,920
greet it with disdain,

841
00:36:11,599 --> 00:36:17,119
disgust, enthusiasm, boredom,

842
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:20,480
excitement, we conversation works

843
00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:22,400
because we're risktakers. And if we

844
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,520
continually are met with disdain and

845
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,280
boredom or disgust, we stop

846
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,400
engaging in conversation in meaningful

847
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,800
conversation, right? It shuts down. So

848
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:36,000
your job as a writer is to create an

849
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:38,079
environment where stories can be told.

850
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:42,160
Part of that sometimes that requires

851
00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:46,880
faking it. But actually 99.9%

852
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:49,839
of the time it requires um an honest

853
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,320
examination of what you really did know.

854
00:36:49,839 --> 00:36:55,839
Right? The easiest thing is for you to

855
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:59,040
say you tell me a story and for me to

856
00:36:55,839 --> 00:37:00,320
say well I knew 75% of that. So, what

857
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:03,200
I'm going to do is I'm going to take

858
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:06,560
credit for knowing all of it. Right?

859
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,240
That's the that's your ego speaking. Oh,

860
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,079
they had this little bit of an insight

861
00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:12,320
which I didn't have, but I'm going to

862
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:14,000
fake it and say, "Oh, I knew that."

863
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,599
Right? The first thing you have to do is

864
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,640
to

865
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:20,560
stop that impulse is to understand that

866
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,920
the even if that little piece you didn't

867
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:25,760
know is only 2%. is to say, "Oh, you you

868
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,240
added to my knowledge of this crucial

869
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,800
subject by 2% and that's meaningful,

870
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:32,800
right? I now look at the world from a

871
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,599
slightly different angle as I did

872
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:39,200
before." And so

873
00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:41,680
cultivating surprise, I think, is a

874
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:44,240
um a central part of of what it means to

875
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,640
be um a writer in the world, a writer

876
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:50,160
about ideas, at least in the world. Um,

877
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,920
and I I have always the the more I know

878
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,640
in a certain sense, the easier it is for

879
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,160
me to be surprised, right? Because I get

880
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,599
better and better and better at

881
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:02,200
identifying the little piece that I

882
00:37:57,599 --> 00:38:02,200
didn't understand before.

883
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,040
The more opportunities you build into

884
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:12,720
your pieces for reactions,

885
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,839
um, the better off you're going to be.

886
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:17,520
the more engaged and memorable engaged

887
00:38:15,839 --> 00:38:20,000
they'll be with the reading process and

888
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:23,040
more memorable the what you've written

889
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,280
will become. So I I did it more when I

890
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,960
was starting out than I do now. But I

891
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,560
always like if I can if there's any

892
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:33,440
opportunity I can give to let the reader

893
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:35,680
to invite the reader into the same

894
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:39,359
thought process I'm going through then I

895
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:41,119
do it right. So, I was uh

896
00:38:39,359 --> 00:38:44,800
you know, there's a in the thing I'm

897
00:38:41,119 --> 00:38:47,839
writing now, I I tell this long story

898
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:50,320
about suicide rates in England. It's

899
00:38:47,839 --> 00:38:53,359
more it's not as dark as it sounds. And

900
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:57,760
I pose a puzzle. And in the way that I

901
00:38:53,359 --> 00:39:00,800
write the puzzle is I don't say that it

902
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:04,079
was a puzzle faced by criminologists at

903
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:06,480
the time. I say this is a puzzle for

904
00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:09,359
you, the reader. What do you think?

905
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:13,200
right now it's a little bit colloquial

906
00:39:09,359 --> 00:39:15,440
but it's I actually want the reader

907
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,960
and the reason I do that is that I was

908
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:21,359
giving a talk and I in in the kind of

909
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:23,599
QandA afterwards in answer to some

910
00:39:21,359 --> 00:39:26,320
question I told this story about British

911
00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:28,560
suicide and I said well wait raise your

912
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,400
hands if you think it's X and raise your

913
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:33,040
hand if you think it's Y and almost

914
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,599
everyone thought it was X and X is wrong

915
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:37,599
so I thought oh this is

916
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:39,520
Most people think it's X. I'm going to

917
00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:42,079
tell them it's Y. So, if I can invite

918
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,000
the reader to guess, they're going to be

919
00:39:42,079 --> 00:39:46,160
surprised when I tell them it's Y,

920
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:49,359
right? Because they're going to say X.

921
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:52,000
Um, so that there's a case where I've if

922
00:39:49,359 --> 00:39:54,640
I told if you guess X and it's actually

923
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,640
X, there's no point inviting the reader

924
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,880
in to confirm something they already

925
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,320
believed. There is it is fun to invite

926
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,560
the reader in if you're going to

927
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,400
challenge their expectation. So now that

928
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,520
I know that

929
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,359
most people are going to have their

930
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:10,359
expectation challenged, that's a fun

931
00:40:07,359 --> 00:40:10,359
game.

932
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,960
If you're describing

933
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:21,760
some phenomenon or some trait or some

934
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,079
some thing that people do to the extent

935
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,839
that you can render it in a form where

936
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:28,720
people can say, "Oh, that's me." Or,

937
00:40:25,839 --> 00:40:31,680
"Oh, that's my

938
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:32,720
husband." or you know I was doing a uh

939
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,200
that's a I was thinking this because

940
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:38,640
there's a quote in my book I'm talking

941
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:40,480
about this phenomenon that

942
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:43,520
the way we interpret the emotions of

943
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,599
people that we know is very different

944
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:48,000
from the way we interpret them in people

945
00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:51,920
we don't know. So you're much more

946
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,839
forgiving in people you know. And so I

947
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,920
was talking to the psychologist and she

948
00:40:53,839 --> 00:40:58,400
says, for example,

949
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,800
whenever my husband is concentrating

950
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,280
hard on something, he looks like he's

951
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,599
really angry. And if I didn't know him,

952
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,480
I'd say, "Why is he so angry?" And she

953
00:41:05,599 --> 00:41:10,720
says, "In fact, I know my husband is the

954
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:14,400
least angry person who ever lived. He is

955
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:16,319
the calmst, sweetest, you know, but when

956
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,640
he concentrates, it just looks like he's

957
00:41:16,319 --> 00:41:21,200
angry." And I know that. And so I and

958
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,119
what I loved about that is

959
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,520
the minute she starts talking about her

960
00:41:23,119 --> 00:41:27,760
husband. So she breaks out of character.

961
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,720
I've been talking to her about her work

962
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:34,400
and she's been speaking as scientist.

963
00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:37,839
She's never mentioned family, husband,

964
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:41,359
anything. And then she breaks

965
00:41:37,839 --> 00:41:43,440
that kind of frame and she says she was

966
00:41:41,359 --> 00:41:48,400
talking about her husband and with great

967
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:50,720
affection and also talking about how um

968
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:54,480
her knowledge and love of her husband

969
00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:55,839
allows her to appreciate him in a way

970
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,680
that the rest of the world does not.

971
00:41:55,839 --> 00:42:00,800
Right? It's this it's this beautiful

972
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:03,200
human moment. And what happens when you

973
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,599
two things happen when you read that?

974
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,599
One is that suddenly you see this

975
00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:09,760
psychologist in a different light. She

976
00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:14,480
was a psychologist before and now now

977
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:16,880
she's a loving spouse and suddenly you

978
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,560
you fall in love with her. You'll

979
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,400
suddenly you care about what she says

980
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,760
and you if you had doubts by the way

981
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,480
before you're like oh no no no they're

982
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:27,760
off table she's great. And then the

983
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,760
second thing you do is you immediately

984
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:33,440
start thinking you put yourself in her

985
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:38,319
shoes and you say, "Oh, wait a minute.

986
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:41,040
That's just like with my son who, you

987
00:42:38,319 --> 00:42:42,720
know, when he

988
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:45,440
he can be incredibly amused by

989
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:48,000
something, but he doesn't smile. It's

990
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:50,319
all inside, right?" And I know that look

991
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,720
now that that means he's cracking up,

992
00:42:50,319 --> 00:42:54,240
but he's not telling you. You know, like

993
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:57,440
you'll do some version of that at that

994
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:59,599
moment. I could have told you that in

995
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,560
abstract terms, but you wouldn't do

996
00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:04,160
that. I But I by giving you the example

997
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:08,599
of someone personalizing it, I've

998
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:08,599
invited you in. You do the same thing.

999
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,000
Everyone wants the reader to keep

1000
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:19,040
reading. That's the great the central

1001
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:22,480
struggle of the writer is to create

1002
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:25,040
something that people will persist with,

1003
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,800
right? We'll keep on going past the

1004
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,200
point when normally they would stop.

1005
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,640
That's your struggle. And how do you do

1006
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,920
that? Well, there's many ways you can do

1007
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:37,839
that, but one of them is by withholding

1008
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:41,760
the prize until the end. Now, if I've

1009
00:43:37,839 --> 00:43:43,119
written a 50-page legal brief uh and I

1010
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,119
want people to go to the end, should I

1011
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:46,480
withhold the prize? Maybe I should I

1012
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:48,720
mean nothing wrong with that. I mean

1013
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:50,000
unless you unless no one will read to

1014
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:52,160
the end and so that no one will get to

1015
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,319
the point. But there are always you

1016
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:58,079
don't have to withhold the main

1017
00:43:54,319 --> 00:44:00,960
argument. You can withhold pieces that

1018
00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:03,520
will nonetheless compel the reader

1019
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:06,240
forward. So I think there's a

1020
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,640
withholding and thinking about what

1021
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:12,240
you're not going to say in the beginning

1022
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:14,960
is a crucial part of of preparation.

1023
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:18,160
There's way too much anxiety about

1024
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:21,359
getting all the facts in early. I think

1025
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:26,160
in writing, it's fine to kind of take

1026
00:44:21,359 --> 00:44:28,800
your time and unravel the story and uh

1027
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,880
in pieces. I mean, I I first I would

1028
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,440
think about this as a kid because I was

1029
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,839
as a kid, you're in the position of

1030
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,440
listening to adults for my parents would

1031
00:44:35,839 --> 00:44:41,200
take us everywhere, but we were required

1032
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:43,440
to be silent. Um, and so I was in the

1033
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:45,440
pose of listener for most of my

1034
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,800
formative years. And I paid keen

1035
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,000
attention to those who could tell a

1036
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:53,280
story and those who couldn't. And you

1037
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,440
know, my dad is a terri was a terrible

1038
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,880
storyteller. I mean, I mean that in the

1039
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,440
most affectionate way. He just wasn't

1040
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,920
very good at it. Mostly because he just

1041
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,520
refused to fill in the blanks for his

1042
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,079
audience. He assumed the audience knew

1043
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,240
as much as he did. Um, so that was one

1044
00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:12,880
extreme to avoid. But at the same time,

1045
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:14,720
I was also aware of how the strategic

1046
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,319
with how effective the strategic

1047
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:18,880
withholding of information was in the

1048
00:45:16,319 --> 00:45:20,560
good storytellers. They they weren't My

1049
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,560
dad was withholding information because

1050
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,880
he was oblivious, but the great

1051
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:27,599
storytellers were withholding

1052
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:30,160
information because they had a reason to

1053
00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:32,000
because they were interested in in

1054
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:35,280
springing something on you in the final

1055
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,440
chapter. Um and that was a kind of

1056
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:41,800
enormous revelation

1057
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,800
uh uh for me as a kid.

1058
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:53,920
Suspense is a function of many things

1059
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:55,440
but it is in large part a function of um

1060
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,400
time.

1061
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:00,960
So suspense is the

1062
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:04,079
writer playing with expectations around

1063
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:06,319
time. Suspense is when you expect to

1064
00:46:04,079 --> 00:46:10,000
have been told something by now and you

1065
00:46:06,319 --> 00:46:12,960
haven't been. Right? So you're it

1066
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:16,079
creates this little buzz inside your

1067
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,920
head like wait I don't know this fact. I

1068
00:46:16,079 --> 00:46:21,119
need to know this fact. Why am I not

1069
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:23,200
being told this fact? Right? And then as

1070
00:46:21,119 --> 00:46:25,680
your puzzlement over why you don't know

1071
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,680
this why this hasn't been resolved

1072
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:31,359
because you're used to narratives are

1073
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:33,599
about the resolution of problems.

1074
00:46:31,359 --> 00:46:35,520
That's what a narrative is. It's I set

1075
00:46:33,599 --> 00:46:37,119
up a certain kinds of things and and

1076
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:38,400
then I solve all of the little

1077
00:46:37,119 --> 00:46:40,480
questions. I answer all the questions

1078
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,599
you have in your mind. With suspense,

1079
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,000
there's certain questions I don't

1080
00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:46,960
answer. And so your natural reaction as

1081
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:49,680
a reader is, wait, why? Right? So

1082
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:52,480
there's no reason why suspense should be

1083
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:54,720
specific to movies or television shows

1084
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:58,079
or fiction. You can do exactly the same

1085
00:46:54,720 --> 00:47:01,359
thing in a work of non-fiction. you can

1086
00:46:58,079 --> 00:47:03,920
withhold information uh for unreasonable

1087
00:47:01,359 --> 00:47:06,000
periods of time and leave your audience

1088
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:09,280
saying well wait a minute why haven't I

1089
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,800
been told that or wait a minute I know I

1090
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,839
don't have the whole story why don't I

1091
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,800
have the whole story because maybe they

1092
00:47:11,839 --> 00:47:14,240
don't know what they haven't been told

1093
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,319
but they just know that there's

1094
00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:18,480
something missing right there's some

1095
00:47:16,319 --> 00:47:21,200
piece and the minute there is that now

1096
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:25,599
that there's a crucial distinction

1097
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:27,440
between surprise and suspense so

1098
00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:30,240
surprise is where I tell you something

1099
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:32,160
and you had no idea you didn't. There's

1100
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:34,400
you had no idea you it was coming or

1101
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:36,079
that you needed to know it. Suspense is

1102
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,359
where you know that you need to know

1103
00:47:36,079 --> 00:47:38,640
something and you haven't been told.

1104
00:47:37,359 --> 00:47:41,280
You're not sure what it's what it's

1105
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,960
going to be.

1106
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,359
Very similar, but they're quite

1107
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:48,400
different. You can play surprise games

1108
00:47:45,359 --> 00:47:50,640
or suspense games if you want. Um, you

1109
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:53,040
know, a good writer will will do both

1110
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,960
depending on the nature of the of the

1111
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:58,240
narrative. But again there's nothing

1112
00:47:54,960 --> 00:48:03,319
these are techniques that are open to uh

1113
00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:03,319
any any form of storytelling imaginable.

1114
00:48:13,839 --> 00:48:18,480
The very thing that makes you love

1115
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:21,599
Google is why Google is not that useful.

1116
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:24,000
So you love Google because I want to

1117
00:48:21,599 --> 00:48:26,160
know what the capital of

1118
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,920
Tanzania is. So I say, "What is the

1119
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:31,760
capital of Tanzania?" And it tells me,

1120
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:33,920
right? But that that Google, in other

1121
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:36,240
words, has given me a dead end. I have

1122
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:38,000
my question. It answers my question. If

1123
00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:40,400
I'm looking for a story, I don't want a

1124
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:42,640
dead end. What I want to do is I want to

1125
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:45,520
be led somewhere entirely new and

1126
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:47,280
unexpected. So how do I get led to

1127
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,520
somewhere entirely new and unexpected?

1128
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,520
If I type in what is it? Capital of

1129
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,000
Tanzania. I suppose I could type in

1130
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,599
Tanzania. That kind of helps. But now

1131
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,160
I'm still getting all the stuff on

1132
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:59,920
Tanzania. Anyways, Google's too good.

1133
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,160
What you really want Google to do is to

1134
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:04,480
make mistakes

1135
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:06,079
to type in Tanzania and Google gives me

1136
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:08,000
a bunch of stuff on Tanzania, but it

1137
00:49:06,079 --> 00:49:10,400
also randomly because it screwed up

1138
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,520
throws in three things that are sort of

1139
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,559
about that, but are actually about

1140
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,839
something entirely different that makes

1141
00:49:12,559 --> 00:49:16,319
me think, "Oh my goodness, I had never

1142
00:49:13,839 --> 00:49:18,960
thought of this." or and then Google

1143
00:49:16,319 --> 00:49:22,480
gives you everything ranked by its

1144
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:25,520
popularity, right? That is the worst

1145
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:27,119
thing imaginable. Can you you're trying

1146
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:29,040
to write an article that's about

1147
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:31,760
something new and fresh that people want

1148
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,040
to read. What does Google show you? All

1149
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,720
the things that people have been

1150
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:39,680
reading. It's set up to conf to confirm

1151
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:41,440
the direction that you're already on.

1152
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,880
And that's fine if that's the kind of

1153
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,440
story you want to write, if you know

1154
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,920
exactly where you're going. But I think

1155
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:52,079
the real problem, the central challenge

1156
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:54,319
of the uh writer is the challenge you

1157
00:49:52,079 --> 00:49:56,319
have at the beginning. What direction

1158
00:49:54,319 --> 00:49:59,440
not is what direction do I want to go

1159
00:49:56,319 --> 00:50:02,160
in? Right? I mean, of all the different

1160
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:05,599
places I can go in the world, give me I

1161
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:07,920
want to find me some new interesting um

1162
00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:11,720
place to go. And that is where the

1163
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,720
computer's not your friend.

1164
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,400
Librarians as a class are the

1165
00:50:18,079 --> 00:50:23,680
friendliest people in America. Let's

1166
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:26,800
just start with that fact. Their job is

1167
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:28,640
to help you access the knowledge they

1168
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:31,040
have under their control. That's their

1169
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:33,520
job. They're trained to do that. That's

1170
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:35,040
what brings them pleasure. So once you

1171
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,680
understand

1172
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,520
that that they're there for you, then it

1173
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,839
then the world is your oyster, right?

1174
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,520
you they they want you to come into

1175
00:50:41,839 --> 00:50:45,359
their library. They want to help you

1176
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,960
find stuff. They want to they want to

1177
00:50:45,359 --> 00:50:48,640
root through the archives for you. They

1178
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,400
want to do everything for you. And they

1179
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,680
I think their their biggest problem is

1180
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,079
they think the world has forgotten about

1181
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,400
them. So you are I mean answering so

1182
00:50:54,079 --> 00:50:58,720
many basic human needs by showing up at

1183
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:02,000
the library. Um so that's that's the

1184
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:04,079
easiest part of it. The hard part is the

1185
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,960
library is I mean it is the physical

1186
00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:10,079
version of of the internet. I mean it's

1187
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:11,920
like the problem is where do you go? I

1188
00:51:10,079 --> 00:51:14,079
even do things something as simple as if

1189
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,680
I read a book that I really love. I will

1190
00:51:14,079 --> 00:51:17,680
go to the library and I will see what

1191
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:19,440
books are around that book on the

1192
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:21,680
shelves,

1193
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:24,160
right? Because if that topic's really

1194
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:27,280
interest books are arranged by topic, so

1195
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:29,040
they've done all the work for you. And

1196
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,640
weirdly, the way that libraries are

1197
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,920
organized,

1198
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,839
you know, they're organized like a

1199
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,520
really good conversation.

1200
00:51:33,839 --> 00:51:37,680
The book that's right next to the book

1201
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,280
is the book that's most like it. And

1202
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,040
then the book that's right next to that

1203
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:44,240
one is a little bit different. And by

1204
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:46,079
the time you get 10 books away under the

1205
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,599
Dewey decimal system or whatever it's

1206
00:51:46,079 --> 00:51:49,599
called, you're getting into a book

1207
00:51:47,599 --> 00:51:51,280
that's in the same general area but a

1208
00:51:49,599 --> 00:51:54,000
little bit different, like even more

1209
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:56,160
different. And then two shelves above,

1210
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,000
it's like we're still on the Vietnam

1211
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,200
War, but now we're talking about a

1212
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,480
totally different part of the Vietnam

1213
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,200
War.

1214
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:05,760
So the the the actual physical

1215
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:08,559
construction of the library shelf is

1216
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:10,880
your friend. It's showing you how to

1217
00:52:08,559 --> 00:52:13,200
think, right? So what do you do? You go

1218
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:14,880
to the library, you find the one you

1219
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:17,760
like, and then you just start looking at

1220
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:20,319
all of the volumes next to it, right? I

1221
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:22,800
mean, it could not be easier. And then

1222
00:52:20,319 --> 00:52:24,240
if you get stuck, you go down like three

1223
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,960
stories and there's a librarian there

1224
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:28,960
and you say, "Help me." And they say, "I

1225
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,880
would love to." And they mean it. So,

1226
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:33,119
it's like, you know, these are It

1227
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:37,559
baffles me why people don't want to use

1228
00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:37,559
these resources more. They're amazing.

1229
00:52:41,839 --> 00:52:47,440
The real fun I have is in searching

1230
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,920
through. So when I if I for example find

1231
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:53,839
a book or or a article that I really

1232
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:55,920
like, the footnotes are very often an

1233
00:52:53,839 --> 00:52:58,240
incredibly fruitful

1234
00:52:55,920 --> 00:53:00,319
um place to spend some time because they

1235
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:03,280
tell you how the person who wrote the

1236
00:53:00,319 --> 00:53:06,079
thing that you're reading thought.

1237
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:08,640
You can retrace their steps. Um and very

1238
00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:10,240
often retracing someone else's steps is

1239
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:13,520
an incredibly useful way to introduce

1240
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:17,760
yourself to a topic. At the moment I'm

1241
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:20,960
writing about this paper this uh that

1242
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:22,800
was written by a British criminologist

1243
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,880
in 1988

1244
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:27,280
and it is about this incred it's about

1245
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,800
suicide but it's not really about

1246
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,520
suicide. It's about something else. It's

1247
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:33,040
sort of hard to explain it but I ran

1248
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:35,040
across this paper because I was talking

1249
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:37,119
to someone who had been a student of

1250
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:40,400
this British criminologist and he said

1251
00:53:37,119 --> 00:53:42,480
well have you seen Ron's 1988 paper? So

1252
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:46,319
I said oh I haven't. I went and found

1253
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:50,319
it. And then he has I read it. It's

1254
00:53:46,319 --> 00:53:52,480
fascinating. He has eight pages of uh

1255
00:53:50,319 --> 00:53:55,119
footnotes, endnotes at the end of all

1256
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:57,200
the things he read when he was coming up

1257
00:53:55,119 --> 00:53:59,680
with his article. So then I go to the

1258
00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:01,920
library and I go down that list and all

1259
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:05,599
the ones that seem cool or interesting

1260
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:09,119
or weird I get for myself. So from one

1261
00:54:05,599 --> 00:54:12,400
article, I then get

1262
00:54:09,119 --> 00:54:14,720
20 articles which are some fraction of

1263
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,319
the things that British criminologist

1264
00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:18,880
read when he came up with this brilliant

1265
00:54:16,319 --> 00:54:20,720
paper. And then I go through those 20

1266
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:24,559
and I go through the endotes of

1267
00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:26,240
footnotes of and endotes of them and

1268
00:54:24,559 --> 00:54:27,839
find

1269
00:54:26,240 --> 00:54:29,839
further articles that are really

1270
00:54:27,839 --> 00:54:31,920
interesting. Now at this point, you

1271
00:54:29,839 --> 00:54:34,880
know, I may be if he wrote his article

1272
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,880
in 1988, his sources were all from the

1273
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,640
50s and 60s and 70s. And then you go

1274
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,559
back to the 50s and 60s and 70s and you

1275
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:42,400
get the stuff that they were reading

1276
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:44,880
which was stuff from the 30s and 40s and

1277
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:47,440
50s that's not online, right? It's only

1278
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,359
in a library. And another mistake people

1279
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,119
make is they assume that if something is

1280
00:54:49,359 --> 00:54:53,839
not current,

1281
00:54:51,119 --> 00:54:56,160
it's not useful. Nothing could be

1282
00:54:53,839 --> 00:54:58,480
further from the truth. Right? In fact,

1283
00:54:56,160 --> 00:55:00,880
I almost feel like the better stuff is

1284
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,640
the older stuff. Um, particularly stuff

1285
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:05,680
that stood the test of time. You can

1286
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:09,119
waste a lot of time messing around with

1287
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:11,440
things that are from the present day um

1288
00:55:09,119 --> 00:55:13,680
without realizing that most of it is

1289
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:16,240
crap and will be forgotten in 5 years.

1290
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,440
Why did you why did you waste a week

1291
00:55:16,240 --> 00:55:20,000
reading all this stuff that was

1292
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:23,640
generated in the in the last month when

1293
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,640
it's going to disappear?

1294
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:31,520
So years ago, I ran I read an article in

1295
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:35,280
the New York Reveal books by Helen

1296
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:39,119
Epstein and it was this is in the mid

1297
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:44,640
90s I think and it had in the middle of

1298
00:55:39,119 --> 00:55:47,839
it a little description of a town in

1299
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:51,200
uh eastern Pennsylvania called Rosettto,

1300
00:55:47,839 --> 00:55:53,359
which had been the subject of a a

1301
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,880
medical study in the 1950s.

1302
00:55:53,359 --> 00:55:57,760
based on the fact that no one in this

1303
00:55:54,880 --> 00:56:01,680
town ever seemed to die. They just

1304
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:04,000
didn't. The town had no alcoholism, no

1305
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:06,079
heart attacks, no suicide, no

1306
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,559
depression,

1307
00:56:06,079 --> 00:56:10,160
and everyone lived to like 95. It was

1308
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:13,119
this puzzle. And they were all

1309
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:15,599
overweight, smoked like chimneys, and

1310
00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:17,599
ate the worst diet you could imagine.

1311
00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:20,240
Um, and so there was a whole examination

1312
00:56:17,599 --> 00:56:23,520
of do they live longer, which they did,

1313
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:25,760
and why? and she talks about this and I

1314
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:27,760
I was talking about this article with a

1315
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:30,240
friend of mine named Virginia and

1316
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,240
Virginia says to me, "Why don't you go

1317
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:35,040
there?" I was like, "What a great idea."

1318
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:37,599
So, I rented a car and I drove the two

1319
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:39,680
and a half hours to Rosettto one Sunday

1320
00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:41,200
afternoon and I just walked up and down

1321
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,440
the town and I chatted to people and in

1322
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:47,040
fact I met the mayor and the mayor took

1323
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:49,440
me into his home and like fed me tea and

1324
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:51,680
some Italian delicacy and we talked

1325
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,440
about this weird fact that nobody died

1326
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:56,400
in Rosettto and they had no problems to

1327
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:59,280
speak of. And I thought it was totally

1328
00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:02,079
fascinating. I kept my notes. I kept the

1329
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:03,920
tape of the interview. I came home and I

1330
00:57:02,079 --> 00:57:05,359
never used it. I mean, it was one of

1331
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,359
those things that I didn't have a place

1332
00:57:05,359 --> 00:57:10,079
for it. I didn't know what I would do

1333
00:57:07,359 --> 00:57:11,920
with it. It was struck me it was it was

1334
00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:14,000
a cool story, but the story had already

1335
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,760
been written. I mean, a book had been

1336
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,920
written by the guy who did the study,

1337
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:20,720
which you could buy. And I was like, am

1338
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:23,040
I just going to repeat what he said? 15

1339
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:26,160
years passed and I was thinking about my

1340
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:28,079
book outliers and I remembered the story

1341
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:29,920
of Rosettto. So, it was one of those

1342
00:57:28,079 --> 00:57:31,760
things that was sitting in my head,

1343
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,599
right, along with a thousand other

1344
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:36,240
random things. And I thought, "Wow, what

1345
00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:38,319
a great way to begin the book." And so,

1346
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:40,720
I rooted through my desk and lo and

1347
00:57:38,319 --> 00:57:43,680
behold, there was the tape and the notes

1348
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:46,000
from long ago. And that was the And it I

1349
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:48,160
was lucky because the people I talked to

1350
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,160
were all these old people in 1996. They

1351
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:53,599
had finally died at the age of like, you

1352
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:56,079
know, 104. So, I So, I was lucky that I

1353
00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:58,400
had this little snippet. Well, you know,

1354
00:57:56,079 --> 00:58:02,319
that's not an atypical

1355
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:06,559
thing for me. I think you have to be

1356
00:58:02,319 --> 00:58:09,680
feel free to go down to to go down roads

1357
00:58:06,559 --> 00:58:12,160
that don't lead anywhere immediately. It

1358
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:14,960
should be fine to go. I was essentially

1359
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,640
going for a wander and collecting

1360
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,079
something and stick it on a back shelf

1361
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,280
in the hopes that I would someday use

1362
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:23,200
it. And I did. And that if you do enough

1363
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,880
of those little wanderings, then you

1364
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:28,319
have a shelf that's packed with all

1365
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:30,000
kinds of really, really cool things. But

1366
00:58:28,319 --> 00:58:31,920
doing something only because you can

1367
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:35,200
perceive in the moment that it might be

1368
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:37,200
useful is a really good way of not

1369
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,640
gathering anything at all because you

1370
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,880
can't know in the moment that the

1371
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:45,040
pressure is too high. Like who knows

1372
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:49,880
what will come of some, you know, stray

1373
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,880
fact. You just have to be patient.

1374
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,440
I did a story once about a school

1375
00:58:55,359 --> 00:59:00,559
shooter

1376
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:03,520
uh who was caught, a wouldbe school

1377
00:59:00,559 --> 00:59:06,640
shooter about a kid in Minnesota who

1378
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:09,440
planned to blow up his school and he

1379
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:11,440
made he knew how to make bombs and he

1380
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:14,480
gathered in a storage locker enough

1381
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:17,440
explosives to have killed hundreds of

1382
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:20,720
students. And when he was arrested by

1383
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:23,359
the police just before he he allegedly

1384
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:25,599
was going to blow up his school, he told

1385
00:59:23,359 --> 00:59:29,359
them exactly how he was going to do it.

1386
00:59:25,599 --> 00:59:31,119
He had it all planned out. And

1387
00:59:29,359 --> 00:59:32,960
went completely unnoticed in the

1388
00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:34,880
national media.

1389
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,960
Not for any nefarious reason, but

1390
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:39,040
because what I didn't realize until I

1391
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:42,000
did this story is that school shootings

1392
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,920
are incredibly common. They happen

1393
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,760
virtually every week. We're just so over

1394
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,599
them now and bored with them. We only

1395
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:50,240
hear about the bad ones. Everything that

1396
00:59:47,599 --> 00:59:52,480
was of value for the story was contained

1397
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:55,760
in the this extraordinary interview that

1398
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:58,079
he gave to the police which lasted four

1399
00:59:55,760 --> 01:00:00,000
or five hours. The transcript of which

1400
00:59:58,079 --> 01:00:01,599
is just online.

1401
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,119
And if you read the transcript, it's

1402
01:00:01,599 --> 01:00:04,480
unbelievable.

1403
01:00:03,119 --> 01:00:06,160
One of the most gripping, weird,

1404
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:11,119
fascinating, chilling things I've ever

1405
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:13,359
read. Um, I have no idea how I found it.

1406
01:00:11,119 --> 01:00:15,440
Uh, I remember reading it. I remember

1407
01:00:13,359 --> 01:00:18,880
what happened when I found it. I read it

1408
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:21,359
in one go and I just said, "Oh, this is

1409
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,720
it's all here. It's an amazing story.

1410
01:00:21,359 --> 01:00:25,839
There's almost nothing else I need to

1411
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:29,440
do." I mean, I

1412
01:00:25,839 --> 01:00:31,520
I added a theory.

1413
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:34,160
So, this was a kid who was there was

1414
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:37,359
nothing wrong with him. He was a a

1415
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:39,520
little bit on the spectrum, but he came

1416
01:00:37,359 --> 01:00:42,319
from a happy family. Wasn't abused as a

1417
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:45,680
kid. He wasn't

1418
01:00:42,319 --> 01:00:48,480
didn't harbor deep dark thoughts. He was

1419
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:51,040
just a kind of nerdy kid who kept to

1420
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:54,559
himself and had loving parents and

1421
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:56,880
sister who he was really fond of and had

1422
01:00:54,559 --> 01:00:59,839
friends. And I was trying to explain,

1423
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:03,280
well, what happens when the school

1424
01:00:59,839 --> 01:01:06,480
shooting contagion, the point of the

1425
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:08,400
article was as it as the school shooting

1426
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,960
contagion spreads, the people who get

1427
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:12,079
swept up in it are more and more normal.

1428
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,559
And then you get to this kid in

1429
01:01:12,079 --> 01:01:15,920
Minnesota and like,

1430
01:01:14,559 --> 01:01:18,960
you know, when he's arrested by the

1431
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:21,520
cops, his parents get upset because he's

1432
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:24,079
out past 10 o'clock or nine o'clock and

1433
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,839
he's never out past 9:00. He's a high

1434
01:01:24,079 --> 01:01:27,599
school junior.

1435
01:01:25,839 --> 01:01:28,799
and he's such a good boy that he's

1436
01:01:27,599 --> 01:01:30,240
always home by 9:00 and they're like

1437
01:01:28,799 --> 01:01:32,319
freaked out. Where is he? Where is he?

1438
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:34,559
Like that's how normal this kid is. So I

1439
01:01:32,319 --> 01:01:36,079
was trying to describe that process. So

1440
01:01:34,559 --> 01:01:38,880
that's what I had to add to the piece.

1441
01:01:36,079 --> 01:01:40,880
Some kind of explanation as to why this

1442
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:44,240
happens. But everything else is in the

1443
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:46,640
transcript. It was like

1444
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:49,440
from a strictly journalistic standpoint,

1445
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:52,400
it was I've never received a more

1446
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:54,319
beautifully wrapped gift in my life. It

1447
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:57,040
was just like it's this unbelievable

1448
01:01:54,319 --> 01:01:59,760
thing that I somehow found. And like I

1449
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:02,799
said, I have no idea how I found it. I

1450
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:04,559
can't even I wasn't even I don't think I

1451
01:02:02,799 --> 01:02:07,359
was looking for something about school

1452
01:02:04,559 --> 01:02:10,160
shooting. Maybe I was

1453
01:02:07,359 --> 01:02:11,520
I just I was just kind of screwing

1454
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:13,359
around on the internet, you know, like

1455
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:17,040
you do.

1456
01:02:13,359 --> 01:02:18,720
and somehow found this PDF file that I

1457
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:20,480
don't think anyone I can't I don't think

1458
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,240
any other journalist could ever have

1459
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,440
read the PDF file because if they had

1460
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:26,480
they would have written the same article

1461
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:30,319
I wrote. I mean it was a it was waiting

1462
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:35,640
to happen. Um so sometimes yeah magic

1463
01:02:30,319 --> 01:02:35,640
does sometimes magic does happen.

1464
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:44,079
I think all good stories have one thing

1465
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:46,400
in common and that is they have an

1466
01:02:44,079 --> 01:02:48,319
ending that I don't want to say

1467
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:51,040
satisfies because some great stories

1468
01:02:48,319 --> 01:02:54,319
have unsatisfying endings which is why

1469
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:57,040
they're great stories but have an ending

1470
01:02:54,319 --> 01:02:58,400
um that transports you somewhere. You

1471
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:00,480
have to be in a different place when you

1472
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:04,720
end than when you were in the beginning.

1473
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:07,200
And if all the story has done is taken

1474
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:08,720
you back to right right back to the very

1475
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,640
place you were when you read the first

1476
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,799
sentence, then it was a waste of your

1477
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:14,960
time. You have to have been challenged

1478
01:03:12,799 --> 01:03:19,720
or transported in some way for the story

1479
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,720
to be to be a great story.

1480
01:03:23,599 --> 01:03:26,319
This is a good example of how

1481
01:03:24,799 --> 01:03:29,440
serendipitous

1482
01:03:26,319 --> 01:03:32,799
story selection is. So this all came

1483
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:36,240
about because many many years ago a a

1484
01:03:32,799 --> 01:03:38,640
criminologist at uh University of

1485
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:40,160
Maryland approached me and he wanted to

1486
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:42,640
use something I'd written in one of his

1487
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:44,480
classes and so I chatted with him and

1488
01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:47,599
then I said what kind of work do you do

1489
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:51,039
and he told me and it was completely

1490
01:03:47,599 --> 01:03:53,760
fascinating. He was the first guy to

1491
01:03:51,039 --> 01:03:56,559
start studying how to fight crime the

1492
01:03:53,760 --> 01:04:00,480
way scientists study disease. So instead

1493
01:03:56,559 --> 01:04:04,000
of just having random ideas or theories,

1494
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:06,079
he constructed experiments with a, you

1495
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,599
know, where half of the people tried

1496
01:04:06,079 --> 01:04:09,039
some new idea and the other half with a

1497
01:04:07,599 --> 01:04:11,520
control and he would run the experiment

1498
01:04:09,039 --> 01:04:13,599
for two years. And he would write up the

1499
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,599
results the exact same way you would if

1500
01:04:13,599 --> 01:04:17,680
you were testing a new drug for cancer.

1501
01:04:15,599 --> 01:04:20,000
And he'd come to all these incredibly

1502
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:22,160
interesting conclusions. There was one I

1503
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:25,440
remember that I've always thought was

1504
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:27,920
fascinating, which was that uh if there

1505
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:31,039
is a dis domestic disturbance, is it a

1506
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:33,599
good idea to arrest the husband if he's

1507
01:04:31,039 --> 01:04:36,079
the one who hit his wife? You would

1508
01:04:33,599 --> 01:04:38,559
think, of course, right? Get the guy out

1509
01:04:36,079 --> 01:04:40,640
of there, shake him up, put him behind

1510
01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:43,520
bars, he committed a crime. And what he

1511
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:46,799
discovered was it depends on the

1512
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:49,760
educational level of the husband. If the

1513
01:04:46,799 --> 01:04:51,200
husband is well reasonably well educated

1514
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:53,520
and a member of the middle class, you

1515
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,280
should arrest him. If he's not,

1516
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:58,880
arresting him has the effect of making

1517
01:04:55,280 --> 01:05:00,400
him so much more angry and ashamed that

1518
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,880
he will do even more damage in the

1519
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:05,599
future to his wife, right? That's the

1520
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:07,680
kind of thing you only find out if you

1521
01:05:05,599 --> 01:05:09,920
do formal study. Anyway, this guy was

1522
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:12,559
kind of fascinating and I have been a

1523
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:14,079
kind of student of his work. And then I

1524
01:05:12,559 --> 01:05:16,000
was returning to the question of crime

1525
01:05:14,079 --> 01:05:17,920
in my new book and I called him up and

1526
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:22,160
he started talking about his friend,

1527
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:23,280
this guy David who's in Tel Aviv. So I

1528
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:25,359
was like, "David sounds really

1529
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:27,520
interesting." So I emailed David and

1530
01:05:25,359 --> 01:05:29,839
said, "When are you next going to be in

1531
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:31,520
New York?" And he's like, "In two

1532
01:05:29,839 --> 01:05:34,079
weeks." I said, "Can we have lunch?" So

1533
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:35,280
we had lunch. And I just had the tape

1534
01:05:34,079 --> 01:05:37,200
recorder running the whole time. And

1535
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:39,599
David told amazing stories. and he was

1536
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:43,760
like, "But you really need to talk to my

1537
01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:45,280
old boss, Ron." So, I called Ron, and

1538
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:48,799
Ron's the guy who wrote the famous paper

1539
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:50,400
from 1988. So, it's all of this kind of

1540
01:05:48,799 --> 01:05:52,480
it starts with a kind of random

1541
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,920
connection with someone and me asking,

1542
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:56,559
"Wait a minute, what do you do?" And

1543
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:58,400
then reading a paper and saying, "This

1544
01:05:56,559 --> 01:06:01,680
guy is really kind of interesting." And

1545
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:04,960
then realizing interesting people

1546
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:06,799
don't exist. They're not on an island.

1547
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:08,799
No interesting person is by themselves.

1548
01:06:06,799 --> 01:06:10,079
If you find an interesting person, it

1549
01:06:08,799 --> 01:06:12,640
means that they are part of an

1550
01:06:10,079 --> 01:06:14,000
interesting group. And that's a crucial

1551
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:16,319
thing to remember when you're looking

1552
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:18,240
for story ideas that the place to look

1553
01:06:16,319 --> 01:06:20,319
for story ideas is the same place you

1554
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:21,839
found good story ideas in the past

1555
01:06:20,319 --> 01:06:24,079
because

1556
01:06:21,839 --> 01:06:26,400
people generate interesting ideas

1557
01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:29,359
because their friends are all

1558
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:30,960
interesting. Like I get a ton of ideas

1559
01:06:29,359 --> 01:06:32,960
from my friends because my friends are

1560
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,880
really interesting if you you know. So

1561
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:38,559
the same is true for everyone. So you

1562
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:40,319
look you use that principle of of of

1563
01:06:38,559 --> 01:06:43,359
connectedness

1564
01:06:40,319 --> 01:06:46,359
um as a way of uh finding more good

1565
01:06:43,359 --> 01:06:46,359
ideas.

1566
01:06:50,559 --> 01:06:54,559
Okay. So, every now and again I do these

1567
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:56,640
email exchanges with the sports writer

1568
01:06:54,559 --> 01:06:58,720
Bill Simmons and we have a lot of fun

1569
01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:01,119
and we were we did one that was about

1570
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,880
the future of football and we were

1571
01:07:01,119 --> 01:07:05,039
talking about

1572
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:07,760
uh the NFL

1573
01:07:05,039 --> 01:07:10,480
uh

1574
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:12,240
Harvard University published a study in

1575
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:14,799
which they made all kinds of

1576
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:16,640
recommendations for improving the health

1577
01:07:14,799 --> 01:07:18,960
of NFL players. One of the

1578
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:21,839
recommendations was the doctors who

1579
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:25,440
examine players on the field should not

1580
01:07:21,839 --> 01:07:27,520
be employed by the teams.

1581
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:30,480
It's a conflict of interest. You can

1582
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:31,760
have the doctor who's trying to who's

1583
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:34,160
giving you advice on whether you should

1584
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:36,720
return to the field of play be employed

1585
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:38,240
by the team whose interests whose

1586
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:41,920
interest is in having you return to the

1587
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:43,920
field of play. Right? the doctor who

1588
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,359
determines whether you return to work is

1589
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:48,000
by and large not employed by your

1590
01:07:45,359 --> 01:07:50,160
employer making sense. Anyway, every

1591
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:52,079
doctor in the NFL is employed by the

1592
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,160
team. It's crazy. So, one of the things

1593
01:07:52,079 --> 01:07:58,160
the report out of Harvard said is that

1594
01:07:54,160 --> 01:08:00,000
we should end this practice. And what

1595
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:02,720
how does the NFL respond? Well, as I

1596
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,240
write, so what happened? The league's

1597
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:05,760
senior vice president for health and

1598
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:08,400
safety,

1599
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:10,799
Jeffrey Miller, fired off an indignant

1600
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:12,240
33page rebuttal.

1601
01:08:10,799 --> 01:08:14,400
Then I So I know what you're thinking,

1602
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:16,159
Bill. The NFL has a senior vice

1603
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:18,560
president for health and safety. Yes,

1604
01:08:16,159 --> 01:08:20,719
they do. And then we go and we have fun

1605
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:23,279
with this notion that a league which is

1606
01:08:20,719 --> 01:08:26,000
notorious for killing its players

1607
01:08:23,279 --> 01:08:27,679
essentially has this hilarious title of

1608
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,520
someone who's responsible for health and

1609
01:08:27,679 --> 01:08:31,040
safety.

1610
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:33,040
while we were doing this back and forth,

1611
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:34,560
we do them over several days. So, I got

1612
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:36,319
really interested in this guy. Who is

1613
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:39,279
this guy,

1614
01:08:36,319 --> 01:08:42,159
Jeffrey Miller, who's the head of NFL's

1615
01:08:39,279 --> 01:08:43,759
uh health and safety, right? And the

1616
01:08:42,159 --> 01:08:45,600
thing that I couldn't get over was the

1617
01:08:43,759 --> 01:08:47,520
fact that everyone kept calling him

1618
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,679
Jeffrey Miller.

1619
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,759
Why didn't they call him Dr. Miller? So

1620
01:08:49,679 --> 01:08:54,159
then I thought, well, wait a minute,

1621
01:08:51,759 --> 01:08:57,440
maybe he's not a doctor. I thought, that

1622
01:08:54,159 --> 01:09:00,960
can't be. How would the NFL appoint

1623
01:08:57,440 --> 01:09:02,319
someone as head of player safety and

1624
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,319
health who wasn't a doctor? Right?

1625
01:09:02,319 --> 01:09:06,400
Doesn't make any sense. So then I

1626
01:09:04,319 --> 01:09:11,199
started rooting around on the internet

1627
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:13,600
and uh I discovered that that is true.

1628
01:09:11,199 --> 01:09:16,080
He's not a doctor. So I wrote, "By the

1629
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:17,839
way, I'm talking in my response to Bill.

1630
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:20,719
I think it's worth pointing out that

1631
01:09:17,839 --> 01:09:23,520
Miller is a Mr. Miller, not a Dr.

1632
01:09:20,719 --> 01:09:25,520
Miller. That's right. The NFL executive

1633
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:28,640
responsible for player health and safety

1634
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:31,120
is not a physician. He's a lawyer. More

1635
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:33,279
precisely, he's an antitrust lawyer.

1636
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:34,799
Miller began his career as chief counsel

1637
01:09:33,279 --> 01:09:37,040
for the antitrust and business

1638
01:09:34,799 --> 01:09:39,040
competition subcommittee of the Senate

1639
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,960
Judiciary Committee. Honestly, you

1640
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:42,640
cannot make this stuff up. In response

1641
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:45,199
to a rising medical crisis on the

1642
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:46,960
football field, Roger Goodell, the NFL

1643
01:09:45,199 --> 01:09:48,960
commissioner, hired someone to make sure

1644
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:50,400
the rising medical crisis doesn't cause

1645
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:52,960
Congress to take away the NFL's

1646
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:55,040
antitrust exemption.

1647
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,880
That point all grew out of the fact that

1648
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:59,520
I didn't understand why he wasn't called

1649
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:01,600
doctor.

1650
01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:04,000
In other words, you have to read I

1651
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:06,000
wasn't just interested in when you read

1652
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:08,880
someone's response, you typically attend

1653
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:11,360
to their words. But here I was attending

1654
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:12,960
to

1655
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:16,159
the

1656
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:18,480
prefix before his name. Right? So I was

1657
01:10:16,159 --> 01:10:21,760
interested in where the words come from.

1658
01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:23,920
And that's a very that's something as a

1659
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:25,360
journalist that you're trained to do.

1660
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:27,920
And it's not something you would do in

1661
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:30,480
normal conversation.

1662
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:32,080
Everyone if you're just talking or

1663
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:33,920
listening to Jeffrey Miller or what have

1664
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:35,440
you, you would take it for granted he

1665
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:36,880
was a doctor. Of course he's a doctor.

1666
01:10:35,440 --> 01:10:39,679
Have to be a doctor. He's the head of

1667
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:41,120
player health and safety for the for a

1668
01:10:39,679 --> 01:10:42,880
league with assets of billions of

1669
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:45,280
dollars, right? Makes no sense. He

1670
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:47,440
wouldn't be a doctor. But a journalist

1671
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:50,080
is someone who is if they're good at

1672
01:10:47,440 --> 01:10:52,960
their job or even remotely competent at

1673
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:55,520
the job is supposed to look at the look

1674
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:58,400
closely at the little fine points and

1675
01:10:55,520 --> 01:11:00,960
kind of worry the details. Um, and that

1676
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:03,679
whole exchange comes from my

1677
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:05,120
stubbornness with this the fact that he

1678
01:11:03,679 --> 01:11:06,719
wasn't being described the way I was

1679
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:08,960
thought he was supposed to be described.

1680
01:11:06,719 --> 01:11:11,520
Anyway, it's just a good example of what

1681
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:15,360
your job is as a journalist and how you

1682
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:17,040
can find gold in the smallest of details

1683
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:19,120
if you're willing to be. By the way, it

1684
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:20,320
took me half an hour online to figure

1685
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:23,199
out that this was the same Jeffrey

1686
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:24,960
Miller who I mean they had the NFL had

1687
01:11:23,199 --> 01:11:27,040
scrupulously

1688
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,960
wiped the internet clean of any mention

1689
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:30,960
of this guy's professional background

1690
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:32,880
precisely for this reason. They didn't

1691
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:34,640
want you to caught on to the fact that

1692
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:36,159
they had a guy responsible for player

1693
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:37,920
health and safety who knows nothing

1694
01:11:36,159 --> 01:11:40,719
about health and safety. Once you've

1695
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:42,960
identified the little this little random

1696
01:11:40,719 --> 01:11:44,640
fact that he they have a lawyer running,

1697
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,760
then you can like have fun for days. You

1698
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:48,320
know what I mean? you're off to the

1699
01:11:45,760 --> 01:11:51,520
races because you've you've identified

1700
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:54,320
that little fact becomes a symbol of the

1701
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:55,840
way they do business which is in

1702
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:58,800
contempt

1703
01:11:55,840 --> 01:12:02,800
of any kind of normal standards of

1704
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:05,840
proper behavior and um and objectivity.

1705
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:07,679
And that's the that's what the best kind

1706
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:09,520
of writing does is identifies those

1707
01:12:07,679 --> 01:12:12,520
details that stand in for a much larger

1708
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:12,520
argument.

1709
01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:19,760
People sometimes write in the first

1710
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:21,840
person because they think it's easier

1711
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:25,840
than writing about something else. This

1712
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:27,920
is false. It's harder. Right? Rule

1713
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,199
number one. If you're going to write in

1714
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:30,800
the first person, you have to understand

1715
01:12:29,199 --> 01:12:33,520
that the bar is way higher than if

1716
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:36,320
you're writing about uh another person,

1717
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:38,239
another object, another activity. Why?

1718
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:40,719
Because the reader's expectations are

1719
01:12:38,239 --> 01:12:44,880
higher. Nothing to do with you. Has to

1720
01:12:40,719 --> 01:12:46,480
do with the reader. The reader has been

1721
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:50,159
educated

1722
01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:51,679
on stories of great people.

1723
01:12:50,159 --> 01:12:53,199
You read the when you read an

1724
01:12:51,679 --> 01:12:56,000
autobiography. Who do you read the

1725
01:12:53,199 --> 01:12:57,440
autobiography of? You read Hillary

1726
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,120
Clinton's autobiography. You read

1727
01:12:57,440 --> 01:13:02,239
General MacArthur's autobiography. You

1728
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:04,640
read a biography of Julius Caesar. You

1729
01:13:02,239 --> 01:13:05,679
read biographies and autobiographies of

1730
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,600
people who have done something

1731
01:13:05,679 --> 01:13:10,560
extraordinary in the world. That's what

1732
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:12,080
you're thinking when you're hearing

1733
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:15,360
someone tell their own story. You're

1734
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:18,640
thinking, "Oh, this guy or this woman

1735
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:22,000
was the one who in who cured cancer, who

1736
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:24,640
discovered a continent, who, you know,

1737
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:27,040
broke the code of some famous puzzle,

1738
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:29,920
who So, when you're when your

1739
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:32,159
expectation is that high, that's that's

1740
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:34,159
what you have to deliver. If you're

1741
01:13:32,159 --> 01:13:37,120
writing about yourself, you're facing

1742
01:13:34,159 --> 01:13:38,719
these skyhigh expectations of what the

1743
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,960
story is going to be about. So, that's

1744
01:13:38,719 --> 01:13:43,040
sort of problem number one. And problem

1745
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:45,840
number two is

1746
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:48,320
the when you write about yourself, you

1747
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:50,560
are engaging in a self-indulgent act.

1748
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:53,920
Now, I don't mean that in the sense of a

1749
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:58,000
narcissistic act or an egotistical act,

1750
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:59,600
but you are turning your gaze inward. uh

1751
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:02,719
you are dealing with the contents of

1752
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:07,760
your own heart and mind and experience

1753
01:14:02,719 --> 01:14:10,640
and um that raises people's suspicions.

1754
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:13,040
So the first question we have is now who

1755
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:15,440
is this person who thinks that they're

1756
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:17,679
so interesting that I have to read what

1757
01:14:15,440 --> 01:14:22,000
has gone on in their life? And I think

1758
01:14:17,679 --> 01:14:26,000
that's that expectation

1759
01:14:22,000 --> 01:14:27,360
concerns me as a writer. I'm not sure I

1760
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:29,199
have a good answer to the question of

1761
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:32,880
why someone should care about my life so

1762
01:14:29,199 --> 01:14:36,880
much and that means that I have written

1763
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:39,679
about my own life very sparingly now

1764
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:41,199
not never told a couple of stories from

1765
01:14:39,679 --> 01:14:42,719
my own life but I mean the number of

1766
01:14:41,199 --> 01:14:44,800
things I can talk about from my own life

1767
01:14:42,719 --> 01:14:48,239
that I think

1768
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:50,480
uh justify the self-absorption and can

1769
01:14:48,239 --> 01:14:52,239
compete with the grand stories that are

1770
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:56,400
told about people's lives out there is

1771
01:14:52,239 --> 01:14:58,000
very small right it's two or three and I

1772
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:00,080
can only tell them in a context where

1773
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:03,199
you will accept

1774
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:06,640
um the kind of uh

1775
01:15:03,199 --> 01:15:09,640
diminished dimensions of my own personal

1776
01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:09,640
narrative.

1777
01:15:20,159 --> 01:15:26,880
the act of explaining an idea

1778
01:15:23,199 --> 01:15:28,800
to somebody else uh is a really good way

1779
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:31,760
to figure out how to tell the story and

1780
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:34,400
what parts of the story work and don't.

1781
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:37,520
So I will very often when I'm working on

1782
01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:40,719
something tell it over and over again to

1783
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:43,199
different people and each time I tell it

1784
01:15:40,719 --> 01:15:45,760
I look to see do they find that

1785
01:15:43,199 --> 01:15:47,840
interesting or not and if they don't

1786
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:49,600
find it interesting why when do their

1787
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:51,280
eyes blaze over when do they change the

1788
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:53,600
subject when do they jump in with

1789
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:56,640
questions when do they and what do they

1790
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:59,520
say next after hearing it all those

1791
01:15:56,640 --> 01:16:01,440
things are that's incredibly valuable

1792
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:06,080
information because they are standing

1793
01:16:01,440 --> 01:16:09,280
standins for my eventual audience. And

1794
01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:12,080
people when you tell a story in my

1795
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:14,159
experience to them in person are much

1796
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:17,600
more honest in their feedback than if

1797
01:16:14,159 --> 01:16:19,679
you, you know, have them read a draft.

1798
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:21,120
When they're reading a draft, they're

1799
01:16:19,679 --> 01:16:23,600
first of all, you're asking a lot of

1800
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:25,440
them. Only a few people will do it.

1801
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:26,719
They're concerned about your feelings.

1802
01:16:25,440 --> 01:16:29,040
They know that you've gone to all this

1803
01:16:26,719 --> 01:16:32,239
work. And so for you to say to them,

1804
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:34,719
"Oh, this is all crap." is really hard.

1805
01:16:32,239 --> 01:16:37,760
But if I'm just randomly telling you a

1806
01:16:34,719 --> 01:16:39,280
story, you can say, "Malcolm,

1807
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:42,080
super boring." Or, "I read that

1808
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:45,040
somewhere." Or, "Why would you or I

1809
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:46,159
don't believe that or wait a minute,

1810
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:47,760
you're going to say something that

1811
01:16:46,159 --> 01:16:49,360
offensive?" Or there's a million

1812
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:50,960
different responses that are incredibly

1813
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:54,000
useful to me that people will freely

1814
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:56,960
give you if you

1815
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:59,199
uh if you lower the bar, if you make it

1816
01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:01,280
easy for them, right? And that's what I

1817
01:16:59,199 --> 01:17:04,960
was I mean I have specific friends who

1818
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:06,560
I'm sure I bore to death because I I

1819
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:09,120
will come back to the same thing and

1820
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:12,560
tell it a different way each time I see

1821
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:15,440
them until I think I've got it in a form

1822
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:18,159
that they'll like. And also I always

1823
01:17:15,440 --> 01:17:19,760
have to be careful that you know the

1824
01:17:18,159 --> 01:17:22,000
things I find interesting and the things

1825
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:24,080
the world find interesting. I know from

1826
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:27,360
past experience they overlap but they do

1827
01:17:24,080 --> 01:17:29,840
not overlap perfectly. So, you know, I

1828
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:31,840
can talk forever about running. It is

1829
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:33,600
quite clear to me that my audience does

1830
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:35,520
not care about running the way I do. And

1831
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:37,360
so, I need to be careful if I'm going to

1832
01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:41,719
write about that to do it in such a way

1833
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:41,719
that will appeal to them.

1834
01:17:45,440 --> 01:17:50,000
If everyone has that shelf in their head

1835
01:17:47,199 --> 01:17:52,800
full of random things, then why limit

1836
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:54,560
yourself to your shelf? People got stuff

1837
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,679
on their shelf that they will give you

1838
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:58,080
quite happily because they don't know

1839
01:17:55,679 --> 01:18:00,239
what to do with it. They'll just toss it

1840
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:02,560
your way. And so the most common

1841
01:18:00,239 --> 01:18:06,320
reaction from anyone when you tell them

1842
01:18:02,560 --> 01:18:10,560
a story is, "Oh, that reminds me of,"

1843
01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:13,120
right? That phrase is uttered trillions

1844
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:15,280
of times every day around the world.

1845
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:17,040
Listen, I spend a lot of time working in

1846
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:19,760
coffee shops and which means I spend a

1847
01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:22,640
lot of time listening to people talk and

1848
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:25,040
in conversation. you'd be stunned.

1849
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:28,560
That's what conversation is. I tell a

1850
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:32,159
story from my head and you respond with

1851
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:34,080
a analogous or tangentially

1852
01:18:32,159 --> 01:18:35,920
connected story from your head and we go

1853
01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:38,159
back and forth, right? And we build a

1854
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:42,800
conversational stream and each building

1855
01:18:38,159 --> 01:18:45,440
block is oh, it's basically, oh,

1856
01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:47,760
you know, here's my version of that

1857
01:18:45,440 --> 01:18:51,199
slightly different. and if they're good

1858
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:52,960
conversationalists that those versions

1859
01:18:51,199 --> 01:18:55,199
all progress to something somewhere

1860
01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:56,800
interesting. Well, why not start one of

1861
01:18:55,199 --> 01:18:59,760
those chains if it's in your own best

1862
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:02,320
interest. So, I tell you, here's this

1863
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:03,840
story I'm working on that's in my head.

1864
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:05,520
Where does it what does it remind you

1865
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:08,080
of? Right? And people will give that to

1866
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:10,239
you without asking. They'll say, you

1867
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:12,080
know, that happened to me once. Do you

1868
01:19:10,239 --> 01:19:15,520
know how many

1869
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:19,280
times that has that response has sparked

1870
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:22,960
something super or I knew someone I know

1871
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:25,600
someone you should talk to or or I read

1872
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:27,920
this last year and I hadn't made sense

1873
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:29,120
of it until now and I turns out I've

1874
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:31,199
never heard of that thing they read.

1875
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:33,040
Right. So

1876
01:19:31,199 --> 01:19:37,360
to cut yourself off from the most

1877
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:39,440
valuable form of idea generation

1878
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:42,800
is crazy.

1879
01:19:39,440 --> 01:19:44,880
I I wanted to do a podcast episode and I

1880
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:46,719
think I'm going to do it, but I haven't

1881
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:48,800
figured out how to do it. But it's all

1882
01:19:46,719 --> 01:19:52,719
based on I was obs I was really

1883
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:54,719
interested last year in memory and how

1884
01:19:52,719 --> 01:19:57,679
how do the stories we tell about our own

1885
01:19:54,719 --> 01:20:00,239
lives change over time and my friend

1886
01:19:57,679 --> 01:20:02,719
Charles who is my most reliable source

1887
01:20:00,239 --> 01:20:04,560
of

1888
01:20:02,719 --> 01:20:06,800
he's the he's the person I tell these

1889
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:07,840
things most to and he's the most he

1890
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,920
always comes up with the most

1891
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:15,280
interesting oh you should think of or oh

1892
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:17,760
this reminds me of and he's Charles says

1893
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:21,040
on this subject. There's he says there's

1894
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:22,960
that great line from Kofka. Everyone is

1895
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:24,800
necessarily the hero of their own

1896
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:26,400
imagination.

1897
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:28,800
And I don't know why I love that line so

1898
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:30,880
much. I love it. It's perfect. It framed

1899
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:32,719
exactly what I wanted. Will I even will

1900
01:20:30,880 --> 01:20:35,600
I use that line in whatever I end up

1901
01:20:32,719 --> 01:20:37,840
doing? Maybe not. But the point is

1902
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:40,800
it suddenly I that's what I was trying

1903
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:42,880
to get at. And actually when Charles

1904
01:20:40,800 --> 01:20:45,040
told that to me, he repeated it a second

1905
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:48,800
time. He's a little bit pedantic. He

1906
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:50,400
said, "Everyone is necessarily the hero

1907
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:52,640
of their own imagination." In other

1908
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:56,080
words, as human beings, we have an

1909
01:20:52,640 --> 01:21:00,719
unstoppable impulse to valorize our own

1910
01:20:56,080 --> 01:21:03,040
memories to to retell the past, stories

1911
01:21:00,719 --> 01:21:06,000
from the past in such a way that we

1912
01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:07,760
become the hero, right? And once you

1913
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:09,679
understand that, so there's all of this

1914
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:11,520
research about memory out there. They're

1915
01:21:09,679 --> 01:21:13,840
all trying to get at what Kofka said

1916
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:15,120
beautifully 100 years ago, right?

1917
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:19,280
They'll say, "Well, your memories are

1918
01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:20,560
bad. You you change your memories. You

1919
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:23,360
none of that answers the central

1920
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:24,960
question. Why? Why do we change our

1921
01:21:23,360 --> 01:21:26,159
memories?" Because we want to make

1922
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:29,120
ourselves the hero of our own

1923
01:21:26,159 --> 01:21:31,440
imagination, right? It's perfect. So,

1924
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:32,800
like, would I do I read Kofka? No, I

1925
01:21:31,440 --> 01:21:35,360
never read Kofka in my life. I barely

1926
01:21:32,800 --> 01:21:38,239
know who Kofka is, but I know Charles.

1927
01:21:35,360 --> 01:21:40,080
And Charles knows Kofka. And I bore

1928
01:21:38,239 --> 01:21:43,120
Charles for 15 minutes with my memory

1929
01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:46,320
stories. and he turned to me and said,

1930
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:48,000
"What did Kofka say? Everyone is

1931
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:50,239
necessarily the hero of their own

1932
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:53,800
imagination." Right? That's why you talk

1933
01:21:50,239 --> 01:21:53,800
about what you're doing.

1934
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:02,719
I came up with a title for a story once

1935
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:05,199
before I came up with a story. The title

1936
01:22:02,719 --> 01:22:09,280
was very simple. The title was the art

1937
01:22:05,199 --> 01:22:12,400
of failure. And I wanted to understand

1938
01:22:09,280 --> 01:22:15,520
why people screw up. By the way, a very

1939
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:18,560
very common topic in all kinds of

1940
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:20,400
branches of psychology and such. So I

1941
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:23,840
want to do my own version of this. And I

1942
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:27,040
was thinking a lot about

1943
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:28,719
sports, how people fail in sports and

1944
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:32,719
other kinds. And I it occurred to me

1945
01:22:28,719 --> 01:22:34,320
that choking and panicking

1946
01:22:32,719 --> 01:22:35,760
were

1947
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:37,280
completely different. They were polar

1948
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:40,000
opposites.

1949
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:41,760
Choking was when you knew how to do

1950
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:44,000
something, but in the moment you

1951
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:46,719
couldn't do it. You somehow lost track

1952
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:50,480
of your ability to produce a familiar

1953
01:22:46,719 --> 01:22:52,400
behavior or action. Panicking was when

1954
01:22:50,480 --> 01:22:54,239
you were in a situation where you needed

1955
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:56,400
to do something and you had no idea how

1956
01:22:54,239 --> 01:22:58,320
to do it. You were in over your head. We

1957
01:22:56,400 --> 01:23:00,639
use that phrase in over your head.

1958
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:02,000
Meaning there is nothing in your head

1959
01:23:00,639 --> 01:23:04,880
that tells you how to manage this

1960
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:07,280
situation. You are the

1961
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:09,440
kid in a car

1962
01:23:07,280 --> 01:23:11,840
after you've been driving for two weeks

1963
01:23:09,440 --> 01:23:14,960
and you're skidding off the road and you

1964
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:16,800
have no clue how to handle it. Um

1965
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:18,639
whereas choking, you know, there was a

1966
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:21,199
famous basketball a famous baseball

1967
01:23:18,639 --> 01:23:24,639
player for the Yankees, second baseman

1968
01:23:21,199 --> 01:23:27,840
who somehow uh forgot how to throw the

1969
01:23:24,639 --> 01:23:30,159
ball to first base. So he he knew how to

1970
01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:31,920
do that his entire life. He'd done it

1971
01:23:30,159 --> 01:23:34,159
tens of thousands of times and he

1972
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:36,560
somehow couldn't find that ability when

1973
01:23:34,159 --> 01:23:40,159
it counted. That is the exact opposite

1974
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:41,199
of the kid soding off the car. Um, so I

1975
01:23:40,159 --> 01:23:42,320
wanted to write an article on the

1976
01:23:41,199 --> 01:23:47,520
difference between these two things. And

1977
01:23:42,320 --> 01:23:51,120
the idea I had for panicking was right

1978
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:53,040
when I was writing the article, JFK Jr.

1979
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:55,520
I was flying in an airplane from New

1980
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:59,360
York to Mother's Vineyard and he crashed

1981
01:23:55,520 --> 01:24:01,520
in the Atlantic Ocean. And from the

1982
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:03,679
reconstruction of the flight path and

1983
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:06,880
such, it became very clear that he had

1984
01:24:03,679 --> 01:24:10,159
been flying into a haze, an evening

1985
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:11,760
haze, and he was not experienced enough

1986
01:24:10,159 --> 01:24:14,400
to understand how to fly under those

1987
01:24:11,760 --> 01:24:16,000
circumstances. He had, in other words,

1988
01:24:14,400 --> 01:24:17,760
panicked.

1989
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:20,400
He was in a situation where he needed to

1990
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:23,360
have a skill. Didn't have it.

1991
01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:26,800
And I thought, "Oh, I need to describe

1992
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:28,880
what that must have felt like."

1993
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:32,880
And so there it struck me that here was

1994
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:36,320
an occasion where doing a kind of

1995
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:38,800
experiential almost like doing a stunt

1996
01:24:36,320 --> 01:24:40,880
made a lot of sense. I needed to go up

1997
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:43,840
in a plane under those exact

1998
01:24:40,880 --> 01:24:45,679
circumstances and describe to the reader

1999
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:48,480
what it felt like because that would be

2000
01:24:45,679 --> 01:24:51,360
very close to what JFK Jr. felt like

2001
01:24:48,480 --> 01:24:54,159
under those circumstances I could be JFK

2002
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:55,360
JFK Jr. Because in the moment he didn't

2003
01:24:54,159 --> 01:24:56,719
know what to do and in the moment I

2004
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:58,800
don't know what to do either. I can't

2005
01:24:56,719 --> 01:25:04,080
fly. And in that moment he couldn't fly.

2006
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:07,280
Right. So I could be JFK Jr.'s eyes. So

2007
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:09,679
I got a pilot, experienced pilot and we

2008
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:12,400
went out to Mterrey Bay in Northern

2009
01:25:09,679 --> 01:25:16,000
California and we went up in the air at

2010
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:18,639
dusk sort of a hazy evening and we went

2011
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:20,960
into what's called a spiral dive which

2012
01:25:18,639 --> 01:25:22,880
is when the plane goes like this. it

2013
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:24,320
goes, it starts to turn over and over

2014
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:26,880
and over and over and over again. You

2015
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:28,400
start spinning and as you spin, you go

2016
01:25:26,880 --> 01:25:31,199
faster and faster and faster and you

2017
01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:33,040
fall towards the earth. And that's

2018
01:25:31,199 --> 01:25:35,040
exactly what happened to JFK Jr. in the

2019
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:38,400
last moments of his life. He went into a

2020
01:25:35,040 --> 01:25:40,320
spiral dive and crashed into the ocean.

2021
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:42,719
And the thing about a spiral dive, which

2022
01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:45,040
doesn't make any sense until you do it,

2023
01:25:42,719 --> 01:25:47,679
is that as your plane is spinning around

2024
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:50,400
and around and around and around, you

2025
01:25:47,679 --> 01:25:53,520
have no sensation while you're in the

2026
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:55,120
plane that it's spinning. It feels like

2027
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:56,800
you're totally level. Now, that makes no

2028
01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:58,880
sense whatsoever because you are

2029
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:00,800
spinning like a top.

2030
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:03,280
But the weird thing is you can't tell.

2031
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:04,719
And that's why he crashes because he

2032
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,560
doesn't he's in a spiral dive and

2033
01:26:04,719 --> 01:26:08,639
doesn't realize it, right? And only an

2034
01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:10,800
experienced pilot would understand by

2035
01:26:08,639 --> 01:26:13,199
looking at his instruments that oh my

2036
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:16,000
goodness, I'm about to crash. So we went

2037
01:26:13,199 --> 01:26:18,639
in, we went high above Mterrey Bay. We

2038
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:21,679
went into a spiral dive.

2039
01:26:18,639 --> 01:26:23,679
I the pilot turned to me and said, "Do

2040
01:26:21,679 --> 01:26:26,320
you feel anything a miss?" And I said,

2041
01:26:23,679 --> 01:26:28,960
"No, I don't." He said, "We are spinning

2042
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:30,560
around like a top." And then all of a

2043
01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:34,239
sudden he pulls out of the dive. the

2044
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:36,320
G-forces pull me back in my chair and

2045
01:26:34,239 --> 01:26:37,920
you know I'm alive today. And he I said,

2046
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,440
"How close did we come to crashing?" And

2047
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:41,760
he said, "A minute, a second and a

2048
01:26:39,440 --> 01:26:43,760
half."

2049
01:26:41,760 --> 01:26:47,199
That that's all in the story, right?

2050
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:50,400
That was me describing what that feels

2051
01:26:47,199 --> 01:26:53,440
like. But that works, I think, because

2052
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:56,719
it is a kind of stunt, but it's not a

2053
01:26:53,440 --> 01:26:58,800
stunt because a stunt is something

2054
01:26:56,719 --> 01:27:00,560
frivolous. It's something you didn't

2055
01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:04,960
need to do. That's what makes it a

2056
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:09,360
stunt, right? The the teenager who, you

2057
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:11,280
know, uh is riding his motorcycle on his

2058
01:27:09,360 --> 01:27:13,760
uh on one wheel as he goes down the

2059
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:16,800
street, that's a stunt. That is just to

2060
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:20,560
show off. It has no purpose. It puts his

2061
01:27:16,800 --> 01:27:22,719
own life needlessly at risk.

2062
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:24,880
This wasn't really a stunt because it's

2063
01:27:22,719 --> 01:27:28,159
clear why I'm doing it. I'm trying to

2064
01:27:24,880 --> 01:27:32,719
describe something very hard to believe

2065
01:27:28,159 --> 01:27:36,239
to my reader. And I think where you have

2066
01:27:32,719 --> 01:27:40,719
created a situation where the experience

2067
01:27:36,239 --> 01:27:42,800
that you've engaged in um is is clearly

2068
01:27:40,719 --> 01:27:47,320
and transparently linked to your

2069
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:47,320
narrative purpose. It's fine.

2070
01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:00,960
I've never thought I was a great

2071
01:27:58,639 --> 01:28:02,400
interviewer because I'm not capable of

2072
01:28:00,960 --> 01:28:05,520
getting someone to tell me something

2073
01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:08,639
they don't want to tell me. So that's

2074
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:12,239
there's one class of epic kind of 60

2075
01:28:08,639 --> 01:28:15,440
minutes interviewer who will or who's

2076
01:28:12,239 --> 01:28:18,239
like a prosecutor who will extract some

2077
01:28:15,440 --> 01:28:20,480
truth from an unwilling subject. I can't

2078
01:28:18,239 --> 01:28:21,840
do that. Not even close. In fact, and

2079
01:28:20,480 --> 01:28:24,480
when I do get something that I sense

2080
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:27,040
they didn't want to tell me, my first

2081
01:28:24,480 --> 01:28:28,960
impulse is to say to them, I'm not going

2082
01:28:27,040 --> 01:28:30,719
to report that or are you sure you want

2083
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:33,360
to tell me that? I had an interview I

2084
01:28:30,719 --> 01:28:36,239
interviewed this guy

2085
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:37,840
last month for my book and he's a he

2086
01:28:36,239 --> 01:28:39,920
worked he's an old uh counter

2087
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:41,679
intelligence officer

2088
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:44,320
who was involved in a very famous spy

2089
01:28:41,679 --> 01:28:45,840
case. And at the end of the interview,

2090
01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:47,440
he told me something that he should not

2091
01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:50,159
have told me. It was something that

2092
01:28:47,440 --> 01:28:53,760
would get him put him in jail. And I I

2093
01:28:50,159 --> 01:28:55,360
was like, "Please stop." You know, I'm

2094
01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:57,760
and I know that that was that is the

2095
01:28:55,360 --> 01:29:00,080
anti-journalistic impulse, but that's

2096
01:28:57,760 --> 01:29:02,000
not what I don't want you to be I don't

2097
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:03,520
want to put you in harm's way in the

2098
01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:05,120
course of some dumb story. You know,

2099
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:06,560
you'll get in trouble. It was

2100
01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:08,400
fascinating what he told you. what he

2101
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:11,280
told me and I wish I could say that now

2102
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:13,040
but um but I'm so I'm another kind of

2103
01:29:11,280 --> 01:29:14,960
interviewer which is that I'm trying to

2104
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:17,760
get you

2105
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:21,400
uh to be yourself. I want to draw out

2106
01:29:17,760 --> 01:29:21,400
your best self.

2107
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:30,000
The central problem that all people have

2108
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:31,360
and particularly interesting people is

2109
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:33,600
that they're not always aware of why

2110
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:39,920
they're interesting. So the job of the

2111
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:42,560
writer is not to um supply the ideas um

2112
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:46,000
in any kind of encounter. It is to be

2113
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:49,920
patient enough to find the ideas that in

2114
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:51,840
any encounter. So you just have to know

2115
01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:53,840
where to look and know how to listen and

2116
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:55,520
know how to push people in the right

2117
01:29:53,840 --> 01:29:59,760
direction and make sure they don't go

2118
01:29:55,520 --> 01:30:01,199
off on a tangent. Um, you know, the when

2119
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:04,480
I was describing the guy who did the

2120
01:30:01,199 --> 01:30:08,080
study about should you arrest

2121
01:30:04,480 --> 01:30:10,159
the husband in a domestic disturbance,

2122
01:30:08,080 --> 01:30:12,719
I don't know whether he realizes how

2123
01:30:10,159 --> 01:30:15,760
profoundly interesting

2124
01:30:12,719 --> 01:30:18,239
that insight was and nor is he aware of

2125
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:21,120
how of that. I mean, he might be aware

2126
01:30:18,239 --> 01:30:22,880
in some ways of it's a difficult insight

2127
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:24,639
because

2128
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:26,239
he's saying we should treat people

2129
01:30:24,639 --> 01:30:28,639
differently according to their level of

2130
01:30:26,239 --> 01:30:30,960
education. I don't know how you do that.

2131
01:30:28,639 --> 01:30:33,679
Um, and also he's saying that your

2132
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:35,600
immediate impulse

2133
01:30:33,679 --> 01:30:36,800
when someone does something wrong is to

2134
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:38,480
arrest them and you should sometimes

2135
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:41,120
resist that because of something that

2136
01:30:38,480 --> 01:30:43,280
might happen a month from now or two

2137
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:45,600
months from now. That's an incredibly

2138
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:47,440
fascinating thought. But because he's

2139
01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:50,400
lived with that and did the research and

2140
01:30:47,440 --> 01:30:53,199
has talked about it 50 times, he may not

2141
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:56,159
understand how problematic that is or

2142
01:30:53,199 --> 01:30:58,560
how fascinating it is or he's in the

2143
01:30:56,159 --> 01:31:00,960
world of criminologists and there and

2144
01:30:58,560 --> 01:31:04,480
his friend in his little circle that's

2145
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:07,600
the way they think, right? So

2146
01:31:04,480 --> 01:31:10,400
my job is to listen and to appreciate

2147
01:31:07,600 --> 01:31:13,040
what he's saying. And all I have to do

2148
01:31:10,400 --> 01:31:15,199
is to bring my

2149
01:31:13,040 --> 01:31:18,480
I bring myself to it and I bring my

2150
01:31:15,199 --> 01:31:20,800
naive self. You know, my job is not to

2151
01:31:18,480 --> 01:31:22,880
be a criminologist like him. It's to

2152
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:24,880
react as a noncriminologist and to say,

2153
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:27,600
"Wait a minute. I've never heard of this

2154
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:29,760
before. That's crazy. How do you do

2155
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:31,760
that?" Right? What what do people say

2156
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:33,280
when you went to them and said, "Don't

2157
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:35,600
arrest

2158
01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:38,400
the poor husbands?"

2159
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:41,199
Right? like that's you know he so it's

2160
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:44,159
it's about alerting people to those

2161
01:31:41,199 --> 01:31:47,440
parts of their lives that are

2162
01:31:44,159 --> 01:31:51,440
that that um may seem bol to them but in

2163
01:31:47,440 --> 01:31:54,320
fact are not um and that that's about

2164
01:31:51,440 --> 01:31:57,120
the the writer has to stay I don't want

2165
01:31:54,320 --> 01:32:00,159
to say dumb but naive is the right word

2166
01:31:57,120 --> 01:32:02,400
it's important to be naive it's not a

2167
01:32:00,159 --> 01:32:02,400
failing

2168
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:11,920
If you, the interviewer,

2169
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:14,080
has a question,

2170
01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:16,639
chances are your reader has a question.

2171
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:20,239
So, your reader

2172
01:32:16,639 --> 01:32:22,880
is typically much closer to you than to

2173
01:32:20,239 --> 01:32:26,880
the person you're interviewing,

2174
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:31,120
right? Um, so your questions are their

2175
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:32,800
questions. So you're you're representing

2176
01:32:31,120 --> 01:32:36,159
your audience when you give an

2177
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:37,920
interview. So I think that your own

2178
01:32:36,159 --> 01:32:40,320
instincts are your guide. If you don't

2179
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:42,480
get it, then you should say, "I don't

2180
01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:43,840
get it." And if you find that something

2181
01:32:42,480 --> 01:32:45,760
fascinating, you should stop them and

2182
01:32:43,840 --> 01:32:48,400
say, "Wait,

2183
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:51,199
that's fascinating." The word wait is

2184
01:32:48,400 --> 01:32:53,280
something that I when I transcribe

2185
01:32:51,199 --> 01:32:56,719
interviews my that I've done, I use that

2186
01:32:53,280 --> 01:32:59,360
word a lot because

2187
01:32:56,719 --> 01:33:01,440
getting someone to slow down

2188
01:32:59,360 --> 01:33:03,520
when they're talking to you solves all

2189
01:33:01,440 --> 01:33:06,239
kinds of problems simultaneously. It

2190
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:09,520
gives you time to think so you can think

2191
01:33:06,239 --> 01:33:10,560
about what it allows them to they may

2192
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:11,600
have skipped over something because they

2193
01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:13,520
don't understand that it's interesting

2194
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:16,560
and it allows them to you to figure out

2195
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:20,159
oh is that actually interesting

2196
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:21,360
and it also uh allows you to gives you a

2197
01:33:20,159 --> 01:33:23,520
better shot at understanding what

2198
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:25,199
they're saying. You know sometimes you

2199
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:27,199
don't understand it because you can't

2200
01:33:25,199 --> 01:33:29,199
but a lot of times you don't understand

2201
01:33:27,199 --> 01:33:30,719
something because it's just moving too

2202
01:33:29,199 --> 01:33:32,639
quickly.

2203
01:33:30,719 --> 01:33:34,800
So wait, I'm kind, you know, my

2204
01:33:32,639 --> 01:33:36,800
interviews are full of me saying, "Wait,

2205
01:33:34,800 --> 01:33:38,800
wait."

2206
01:33:36,800 --> 01:33:40,320
Almost kind of pathetically, but you

2207
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:42,159
just see you hear these little weights

2208
01:33:40,320 --> 01:33:45,800
on the tape.

2209
01:33:42,159 --> 01:33:45,800
Go over that again.

2210
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:55,920
So humility is two things. It is a trait

2211
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:59,600
and a tactic. Um,

2212
01:33:55,920 --> 01:34:02,480
I think human beings have a uh an

2213
01:33:59,600 --> 01:34:05,600
obligation, a moral obligation to pursue

2214
01:34:02,480 --> 01:34:08,639
humility as a trait. Um, we are better

2215
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:10,480
people when we are humble. We're it's

2216
01:34:08,639 --> 01:34:12,560
easier to learn. It's easier to get

2217
01:34:10,480 --> 01:34:14,080
along with others. It's easier to

2218
01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:17,120
appreciate the world around you. There

2219
01:34:14,080 --> 01:34:20,239
is an infinite number of reasons. We are

2220
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:24,159
we are truer versions of ourselves. Um,

2221
01:34:20,239 --> 01:34:27,920
and we are better friends and family to

2222
01:34:24,159 --> 01:34:31,199
others when we're not putting ourselves

2223
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:34,320
first. I was reminded of this. There's

2224
01:34:31,199 --> 01:34:36,719
this cafe I always go to in um when I'm

2225
01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:39,679
in LA, which is around the corner from a

2226
01:34:36,719 --> 01:34:41,360
seminary. And so all the conversations

2227
01:34:39,679 --> 01:34:44,960
that you overhear are conversations

2228
01:34:41,360 --> 01:34:48,159
about God and scripture. And I was last

2229
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:50,080
time I was there was a young woman

2230
01:34:48,159 --> 01:34:52,000
talking to someone who I assumed was her

2231
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:53,840
professor

2232
01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:56,320
about what she should do next when she

2233
01:34:53,840 --> 01:34:57,679
graduated. She couldn't figure out she

2234
01:34:56,320 --> 01:35:00,480
was had all kinds of choices and

2235
01:34:57,679 --> 01:35:02,560
questions and anxieties in her mind. And

2236
01:35:00,480 --> 01:35:06,080
what she said was not I can't figure out

2237
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:08,159
what I want to do but her question was I

2238
01:35:06,080 --> 01:35:12,159
can't figure out what God wants me to

2239
01:35:08,159 --> 01:35:17,840
do. She put herself second. It wasn't

2240
01:35:12,159 --> 01:35:19,760
about looking inside herself and finding

2241
01:35:17,840 --> 01:35:21,920
some sort of inner truth about herself.

2242
01:35:19,760 --> 01:35:24,480
It was about looking

2243
01:35:21,920 --> 01:35:27,679
for a higher purpose. I need to

2244
01:35:24,480 --> 01:35:30,800
understand what my relationship is to

2245
01:35:27,679 --> 01:35:32,000
some higher purpose. Right now I don't

2246
01:35:30,800 --> 01:35:35,760
doesn't matter whether you're religious

2247
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:40,159
or not but you can see what is beautiful

2248
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:42,400
in that attitude and how that notion of

2249
01:35:40,159 --> 01:35:43,600
humility that informs that what does God

2250
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:46,719
want me to do is a statement of

2251
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:49,920
humility. How much how that changes the

2252
01:35:46,719 --> 01:35:51,520
way she navigates the world. And by the

2253
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:53,520
way

2254
01:35:51,520 --> 01:35:56,880
among other things is so profoundly

2255
01:35:53,520 --> 01:35:59,840
interesting. Why did I eavesdrop on that

2256
01:35:56,880 --> 01:36:03,440
conversation? Because what does God want

2257
01:35:59,840 --> 01:36:04,880
me to do in the world is interesting. I

2258
01:36:03,440 --> 01:36:06,639
wanted to know what does she think God

2259
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,080
wants to do in if she if she had said

2260
01:36:06,639 --> 01:36:09,920
what do I want to do in the world that's

2261
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:12,320
every conversation you've ever heard and

2262
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:15,920
I would have gone back to my writing

2263
01:36:12,320 --> 01:36:17,520
right so humble questions are almost

2264
01:36:15,920 --> 01:36:20,480
invariably more interesting than

2265
01:36:17,520 --> 01:36:21,679
self-centered questions but humility

2266
01:36:20,480 --> 01:36:23,760
that leads me to the other side of

2267
01:36:21,679 --> 01:36:26,000
humility humility is also a tactic I

2268
01:36:23,760 --> 01:36:29,920
don't mean that in a cynical way but it

2269
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:32,960
is something that allows you to navigate

2270
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:36,080
the world so much more easily And when

2271
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:38,159
you go and adopt a tone of humility in

2272
01:36:36,080 --> 01:36:41,199
an interview, the interview is just way

2273
01:36:38,159 --> 01:36:44,880
better. So if you listen

2274
01:36:41,199 --> 01:36:46,000
to people's interviews, like you on the

2275
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:46,960
radio or whatever, whenever you're

2276
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:48,880
listening to an interview or in a

2277
01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:52,000
podcast,

2278
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:53,840
um I'm always alert to the ones that

2279
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:55,199
don't work and figure out why don't they

2280
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:59,199
work. And they invariably don't work

2281
01:36:55,199 --> 01:37:03,440
because of this exact reason that the

2282
01:36:59,199 --> 01:37:06,480
the interviewer is so anxious to insert

2283
01:37:03,440 --> 01:37:09,679
their own experiences and self into the

2284
01:37:06,480 --> 01:37:12,080
conversation that they derail it.

2285
01:37:09,679 --> 01:37:13,760
They they're like, you don't want to I

2286
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:15,119
don't want to hear the interviewer. I

2287
01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:17,679
want to hear the person you brought into

2288
01:37:15,119 --> 01:37:19,199
the studio. And it's not that I don't

2289
01:37:17,679 --> 01:37:20,880
want an interaction. I want an

2290
01:37:19,199 --> 01:37:22,719
interaction, but I want an interaction

2291
01:37:20,880 --> 01:37:24,880
that begins from a position of humility

2292
01:37:22,719 --> 01:37:27,760
where the interviewer says, "I am

2293
01:37:24,880 --> 01:37:30,080
genuinely interested in you." Not only

2294
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:32,159
that, for the purposes of this

2295
01:37:30,080 --> 01:37:35,119
interview, I am more interested in you

2296
01:37:32,159 --> 01:37:38,080
than me. Those are the terms. The terms

2297
01:37:35,119 --> 01:37:40,000
are humble terms. It's a tactic. In real

2298
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:43,520
life, I may be twice as interesting as

2299
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:46,960
you, but for this conversation, the way

2300
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:48,719
it's going to work is I think that you

2301
01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:50,480
are fascinating and I'm going to do my

2302
01:37:48,719 --> 01:37:52,800
best to make you fascinating and I'm

2303
01:37:50,480 --> 01:37:54,400
going to subjugate

2304
01:37:52,800 --> 01:37:57,360
all of myself in order to make that

2305
01:37:54,400 --> 01:38:00,800
happen. That's a humility as a tactic.

2306
01:37:57,360 --> 01:38:04,080
And that's why those kinds of interviews

2307
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:09,040
succeed. And when do they fail? When if

2308
01:38:04,080 --> 01:38:11,040
you ever watch so late night television,

2309
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:13,199
those interviews are not interviews,

2310
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:17,679
right? Because that's not those aren't

2311
01:38:13,199 --> 01:38:22,239
the terms. The terms are that the late

2312
01:38:17,679 --> 01:38:24,480
night host is using you to demonstrate

2313
01:38:22,239 --> 01:38:29,199
their own

2314
01:38:24,480 --> 01:38:31,760
uh charm and wit, right? the the host is

2315
01:38:29,199 --> 01:38:35,199
the the the person who comes on the

2316
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:36,400
show, they may start out being,

2317
01:38:35,199 --> 01:38:38,560
oh, they're they have an interesting

2318
01:38:36,400 --> 01:38:40,880
story, but ultimately what the host is

2319
01:38:38,560 --> 01:38:43,520
trying to do is just use them as a

2320
01:38:40,880 --> 01:38:45,600
springboard for jokes, right? They want

2321
01:38:43,520 --> 01:38:48,159
to br they try to bring the attention

2322
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:49,600
back to themselves. Now, nothing wrong

2323
01:38:48,159 --> 01:38:52,800
with that in that context, but just to

2324
01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:54,560
be clear, those that's not interviewing.

2325
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:56,800
That's entertainment. That's a show.

2326
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:59,920
That's something else. That's not

2327
01:38:56,800 --> 01:39:02,800
journalism is not taking place when

2328
01:38:59,920 --> 01:39:04,480
Jimmy Fallon interviews,

2329
01:39:02,800 --> 01:39:06,800
you know, the hottest young actor in

2330
01:39:04,480 --> 01:39:09,520
Hollywood. Something else is going on.

2331
01:39:06,800 --> 01:39:12,560
They're constructing a kind of a little

2332
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:16,320
weird television

2333
01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:18,159
work of art. Um, but an a true interview

2334
01:39:16,320 --> 01:39:22,520
is something that proceeds on different

2335
01:39:18,159 --> 01:39:22,520
a different kind of power basis.

2336
01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:32,639
I get very very tired when I interview

2337
01:39:28,719 --> 01:39:35,520
people and so as a rule I never try I

2338
01:39:32,639 --> 01:39:37,840
try and if the interviews goes more than

2339
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:41,840
two hours or two and a half hours I stop

2340
01:39:37,840 --> 01:39:45,760
it and either come back another day or

2341
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:48,000
another week or I just don't think

2342
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:50,480
I can function. I don't even know about

2343
01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:52,960
the subject. subjects get tired too, but

2344
01:39:50,480 --> 01:39:56,719
I can't listen to listen intently for

2345
01:39:52,960 --> 01:40:00,080
more than two hours is too much. Um, and

2346
01:39:56,719 --> 01:40:02,960
so when I find myself yawning, I stop.

2347
01:40:00,080 --> 01:40:04,880
And I think that's important because,

2348
01:40:02,960 --> 01:40:06,560
you know, just running an interview when

2349
01:40:04,880 --> 01:40:08,639
you're tired is a waste of time because

2350
01:40:06,560 --> 01:40:13,040
you're not you can't listen. You need to

2351
01:40:08,639 --> 01:40:16,239
listen to kind of um to understand where

2352
01:40:13,040 --> 01:40:17,600
the next question should go. Um, that's

2353
01:40:16,239 --> 01:40:19,600
another problem that people I think have

2354
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:21,840
in interviews, which is I don't script

2355
01:40:19,600 --> 01:40:24,560
my interviews. I have a couple of

2356
01:40:21,840 --> 01:40:26,560
questions written out. But

2357
01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:28,960
if you write out the questions ahead of

2358
01:40:26,560 --> 01:40:31,280
time, then you're making this colossal

2359
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:34,480
mistake. You're first of all, you're

2360
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:35,679
assuming that you know what you want

2361
01:40:34,480 --> 01:40:37,360
before you've started and you're

2362
01:40:35,679 --> 01:40:38,560
assuming you know have some general

2363
01:40:37,360 --> 01:40:41,040
sense of what the person is going to

2364
01:40:38,560 --> 01:40:43,600
say. How do you know that? The most

2365
01:40:41,040 --> 01:40:46,560
interesting thing anyone can tell you in

2366
01:40:43,600 --> 01:40:48,719
an interview is the unexpected thing.

2367
01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:51,679
And if you have the list of questions in

2368
01:40:48,719 --> 01:40:54,639
front of you that you're devoted to,

2369
01:40:51,679 --> 01:40:56,320
then you're closing off all kinds of

2370
01:40:54,639 --> 01:40:59,800
opportunities. You're closing doors

2371
01:40:56,320 --> 01:40:59,800
before you started.

2372
01:41:03,360 --> 01:41:11,360
I know that one of the weaknesses I have

2373
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:15,040
as a interviewer is I I don't like it

2374
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:18,159
when I'm I don't like um covering

2375
01:41:15,040 --> 01:41:21,679
emotionally complicated terrain

2376
01:41:18,159 --> 01:41:23,520
with my subjects. I find it weird to

2377
01:41:21,679 --> 01:41:27,040
talk about intimate subjects with people

2378
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:28,880
with whom I'm not intimate. And so

2379
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:31,199
that's a necessary part of certain kinds

2380
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:33,440
of stories. And I had this problem when

2381
01:41:31,199 --> 01:41:36,480
I was writing my book David and Goliath

2382
01:41:33,440 --> 01:41:38,400
that I wanted to talk about what it

2383
01:41:36,480 --> 01:41:41,679
meant to be

2384
01:41:38,400 --> 01:41:45,040
uh someone living in Belfast during the

2385
01:41:41,679 --> 01:41:48,719
troubles during the 20 30 years of

2386
01:41:45,040 --> 01:41:50,000
non-stop violence that marked um that

2387
01:41:48,719 --> 01:41:51,679
period in Northern Ireland's history

2388
01:41:50,000 --> 01:41:54,880
when the Protestants and Catholics were

2389
01:41:51,679 --> 01:41:58,080
at each other's throats. And I was just

2390
01:41:54,880 --> 01:42:01,280
incapable of getting of of of

2391
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:04,080
getting people to of eliciting that kind

2392
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:07,600
of understanding from people I was

2393
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:09,679
interviewing. And finally I I was there

2394
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:11,600
for weeks trying to do this and it

2395
01:42:09,679 --> 01:42:14,159
wasn't working. So finally I had this

2396
01:42:11,600 --> 01:42:17,679
assistant named Jane who was very kind

2397
01:42:14,159 --> 01:42:19,920
of savvy and emotionally savvy. Finally,

2398
01:42:17,679 --> 01:42:21,360
I just came home and sent Jane and Jane

2399
01:42:19,920 --> 01:42:22,719
went for like two days and got the most

2400
01:42:21,360 --> 01:42:24,400
amazing interview with this woman named

2401
01:42:22,719 --> 01:42:26,560
Rosemary Lawler, which was the whole

2402
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:29,760
chapter. So, I mean, it was a kind of

2403
01:42:26,560 --> 01:42:31,280
like really good lesson in, you know,

2404
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:33,520
uh, a little bit of self-nowledge would

2405
01:42:31,280 --> 01:42:36,560
have saved me several weeks of worry. It

2406
01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:39,600
was also a kind of interesting

2407
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:41,679
an important lesson because my

2408
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:44,480
like most writers are independent

2409
01:42:41,679 --> 01:42:46,239
contractors. You do everything yourself,

2410
01:42:44,480 --> 01:42:48,239
right? And it's important to understand

2411
01:42:46,239 --> 01:42:51,440
that, you know, sometimes you can behave

2412
01:42:48,239 --> 01:42:53,280
in the normal world. People assign jobs

2413
01:42:51,440 --> 01:42:55,360
to those who are best capable of doing

2414
01:42:53,280 --> 01:42:57,280
them. We're not used to that as writers.

2415
01:42:55,360 --> 01:42:59,760
We're we think we have to be the jack of

2416
01:42:57,280 --> 01:43:02,080
all trades. But you don't actually, you

2417
01:42:59,760 --> 01:43:03,600
know, Jane,

2418
01:43:02,080 --> 01:43:05,840
you know, was infinitely better than I

2419
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:07,840
was at getting someone to open up about

2420
01:43:05,840 --> 01:43:10,400
emotionally painful subjects. Why

2421
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:12,159
wouldn't I just use Jane? I mean, why

2422
01:43:10,400 --> 01:43:15,159
did it take me a month to figure that

2423
01:43:12,159 --> 01:43:15,159
out?

2424
01:43:25,040 --> 01:43:32,639
I often think of this profile that I did

2425
01:43:27,119 --> 01:43:34,560
of an an investor named Nim Taleb. Um

2426
01:43:32,639 --> 01:43:38,080
because

2427
01:43:34,560 --> 01:43:41,280
when I met him, I found him delightful.

2428
01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:43,199
And I not delightful in a kind of he's a

2429
01:43:41,280 --> 01:43:47,760
fun guy to hang out with, but I thought

2430
01:43:43,199 --> 01:43:50,480
he had a kind of magnificence of spirit

2431
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:53,520
that was wholly unusual that I hadn't

2432
01:43:50,480 --> 01:43:55,360
really uncovered in anyone. Um I didn't

2433
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:58,000
particularly agree with everything he

2434
01:43:55,360 --> 01:44:00,560
said. Many things he said I found weird,

2435
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:03,840
sometimes even offensive, but it didn't

2436
01:44:00,560 --> 01:44:05,679
matter. He had there was just something

2437
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:08,639
about him

2438
01:44:05,679 --> 01:44:11,280
that was uh magnificent. Like I said,

2439
01:44:08,639 --> 01:44:13,280
that's the right word. And so when I

2440
01:44:11,280 --> 01:44:15,920
described him, what I wanted to do was

2441
01:44:13,280 --> 01:44:18,239
describe him in such the task was to

2442
01:44:15,920 --> 01:44:20,639
describe him in such a way that you got

2443
01:44:18,239 --> 01:44:22,639
a glimpse of that.

2444
01:44:20,639 --> 01:44:25,520
You couldn't get all of it cuz you have

2445
01:44:22,639 --> 01:44:30,480
to meet him to get all of it. but you

2446
01:44:25,520 --> 01:44:33,760
get some of it. And so I I had to kind

2447
01:44:30,480 --> 01:44:38,560
of I had to summon him for the reader,

2448
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:42,400
not just um in a literal way, but in a

2449
01:44:38,560 --> 01:44:44,159
way that captured his spirit. And I've

2450
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:46,159
um

2451
01:44:44,159 --> 01:44:48,719
uh so let me just read to you from my

2452
01:44:46,159 --> 01:44:52,199
description of him. And um hopefully

2453
01:44:48,719 --> 01:44:52,199
that comes through.

2454
01:44:55,840 --> 01:45:00,639
One recent spring morning, the staff of

2455
01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:02,719
Empirica, which is the name for Nim's

2456
01:45:00,639 --> 01:45:04,480
trading firm, were concerned with

2457
01:45:02,719 --> 01:45:06,800
solving a thorny problem having to do

2458
01:45:04,480 --> 01:45:08,080
with the square root of n, where n is a

2459
01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:10,639
given number of random set of

2460
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:12,639
observations, and what relation n might

2461
01:45:10,639 --> 01:45:15,920
have to a speculator's confidence in his

2462
01:45:12,639 --> 01:45:17,600
estimations. Keep in mind, these guys

2463
01:45:15,920 --> 01:45:19,440
are supposed to be trading stocks, and

2464
01:45:17,600 --> 01:45:22,080
instead they're having an argument about

2465
01:45:19,440 --> 01:45:23,920
essentially algebra. TB was up at a

2466
01:45:22,080 --> 01:45:25,679
whiteboard by the door, his marker

2467
01:45:23,920 --> 01:45:28,480
squeaking furiously as he scribbled

2468
01:45:25,679 --> 01:45:30,560
possible solutions. Spitzenegel and Pup,

2469
01:45:28,480 --> 01:45:32,880
these are his two employees, looked on

2470
01:45:30,560 --> 01:45:35,040
intently. Spitzenegel is blonde and from

2471
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:37,760
the Midwest and does yoga. In contrast

2472
01:45:35,040 --> 01:45:40,159
to Taleb, he exudes a certain laconic

2473
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:42,000
level-headedness. In a bar, TB would

2474
01:45:40,159 --> 01:45:44,960
pick a fight. Spitzenegel would break it

2475
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:46,960
up. Palop is of Thai extraction and is

2476
01:45:44,960 --> 01:45:49,360
doing a PhD in financial mathematics at

2477
01:45:46,960 --> 01:45:51,760
Princeton. He has longish black hair and

2478
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:53,920
a slightly quizzical air. Palip is very

2479
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:55,679
lazy. TB will remark to no one in

2480
01:45:53,920 --> 01:45:57,760
particular several times over the course

2481
01:45:55,679 --> 01:46:00,159
of the day. Although this is said with

2482
01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:03,119
such affection that it suggests that

2483
01:46:00,159 --> 01:46:06,080
laziness in the Talebian nomenclature is

2484
01:46:03,119 --> 01:46:09,199
a synonym for genius.

2485
01:46:06,080 --> 01:46:11,440
It's it's

2486
01:46:09,199 --> 01:46:14,000
that's the moment that's the that's the

2487
01:46:11,440 --> 01:46:16,880
moment where I'm trying to communicate

2488
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:20,159
to you just how wonderfully and

2489
01:46:16,880 --> 01:46:24,159
spectacularly weird he is and the

2490
01:46:20,159 --> 01:46:27,119
delightful fact that he would call one

2491
01:46:24,159 --> 01:46:29,280
of his employees over and over again to

2492
01:46:27,119 --> 01:46:32,800
the world lazy and it's actually a

2493
01:46:29,280 --> 01:46:35,040
compliment. Once you kind of grasp that

2494
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:39,719
fact about Nasim Taleb, I think you

2495
01:46:35,040 --> 01:46:39,719
understand who Nim Taleb is

2496
01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:48,000
in these two descriptions.

2497
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:49,760
Um

2498
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:53,760
there's very little complicated about

2499
01:46:49,760 --> 01:46:56,560
it. Um and so for example, when I

2500
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:58,320
describe Spitzenegel, I say Spitzenegel

2501
01:46:56,560 --> 01:47:02,400
is blonde and from the Midwest and does

2502
01:46:58,320 --> 01:47:04,480
yoga. That is the most cliched,

2503
01:47:02,400 --> 01:47:08,880
right? I've told I've summoned three

2504
01:47:04,480 --> 01:47:12,480
cliches. He's blonde, so you think, oh,

2505
01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:14,880
he's like not that smart.

2506
01:47:12,480 --> 01:47:17,600
He's from the Midwest. He's boring. He

2507
01:47:14,880 --> 01:47:23,360
does yoga. He's some kind of dreamy

2508
01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:26,480
millennial, right? The in combination,

2509
01:47:23,360 --> 01:47:28,159
you get a little somewhere. But I don't

2510
01:47:26,480 --> 01:47:30,560
want to get complicated with Spitzenegel

2511
01:47:28,159 --> 01:47:33,760
because I want you to stay focused on

2512
01:47:30,560 --> 01:47:36,000
Nim. His only function I mean I happen

2513
01:47:33,760 --> 01:47:38,400
to have liked him a lot as well and he's

2514
01:47:36,000 --> 01:47:41,840
a brilliant guy but his function in this

2515
01:47:38,400 --> 01:47:44,320
passage is to be a counterpart to Nim

2516
01:47:41,840 --> 01:47:47,920
Taleb and to remind you that part of Nim

2517
01:47:44,320 --> 01:47:50,480
TB's genius is that he's quite he's

2518
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:51,920
totally he's delighted to spend time

2519
01:47:50,480 --> 01:47:54,000
with people who are about as different

2520
01:47:51,920 --> 01:47:57,840
from himself as is humanly possible.

2521
01:47:54,000 --> 01:48:01,199
Right. Nim is from Lebanon. He's out of

2522
01:47:57,840 --> 01:48:03,280
his mind and he's got this huge nose and

2523
01:48:01,199 --> 01:48:05,199
he's like, you know, waving his fingers

2524
01:48:03,280 --> 01:48:07,679
in the air. And who's his like best

2525
01:48:05,199 --> 01:48:09,440
friend at work? It's this blonde guy

2526
01:48:07,679 --> 01:48:12,159
from the Midwest who's like, and then I

2527
01:48:09,440 --> 01:48:15,119
say, you know, Tilly would nine would

2528
01:48:12,159 --> 01:48:19,040
pick a fight, Spitzenegel would break it

2529
01:48:15,119 --> 01:48:22,159
up. And so you you get a sense of I I

2530
01:48:19,040 --> 01:48:23,600
think I I was trying to reveal

2531
01:48:22,159 --> 01:48:27,280
Spitz a little more of Spitzenegel's

2532
01:48:23,600 --> 01:48:29,280
personality in that imaginary

2533
01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:30,880
moment. You can and you you you

2534
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:33,360
understand that they are at opposite

2535
01:48:30,880 --> 01:48:35,280
ends of the continuum. And again this

2536
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:38,400
see that is that guy who loves that

2537
01:48:35,280 --> 01:48:40,320
fact. Um and then Lazy Popup who later

2538
01:48:38,400 --> 01:48:42,639
on I describe how Popup doesn't even

2539
01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:44,320
look at anybody. He turns his chair

2540
01:48:42,639 --> 01:48:46,800
around so he's looking out the window

2541
01:48:44,320 --> 01:48:49,360
and just sits there reflecting, right?

2542
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:51,199
And they love that about him.

2543
01:48:49,360 --> 01:48:55,360
And again, the same the guy is he's

2544
01:48:51,199 --> 01:48:57,199
paying Paul a salary and Paul is staring

2545
01:48:55,360 --> 01:48:59,600
out the window and Nim thinks it's

2546
01:48:57,199 --> 01:49:02,400
fantastic, right? Like that's the but

2547
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:04,880
all of those are very

2548
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:07,679
these are very simple concrete some of

2549
01:49:04,880 --> 01:49:10,159
them cliched images that if you stack

2550
01:49:07,679 --> 01:49:12,159
them on top of each other I think you

2551
01:49:10,159 --> 01:49:16,080
get somewhere right you don't need to do

2552
01:49:12,159 --> 01:49:17,760
this you don't need to be ped and do

2553
01:49:16,080 --> 01:49:19,040
some pages and pages and pages of

2554
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:24,560
description I think it can be done

2555
01:49:19,040 --> 01:49:26,080
relatively um uh efficient in the way

2556
01:49:24,560 --> 01:49:29,119
you describe people here's the line

2557
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:30,800
about Palop's computer was untouched and

2558
01:49:29,119 --> 01:49:33,119
he often turned his chair around so that

2559
01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:35,920
he faced completely away from his desk.

2560
01:49:33,119 --> 01:49:39,119
So it's like he's just like he didn't do

2561
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:42,840
anything. Sat there and everyone found

2562
01:49:39,119 --> 01:49:42,840
it enormously amusing.

2563
01:49:47,840 --> 01:49:53,920
writing with my friend David for this

2564
01:49:50,080 --> 01:49:56,560
medical journal. the story

2565
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:59,440
of uh

2566
01:49:56,560 --> 01:50:03,040
of an interview that I conducted 25

2567
01:49:59,440 --> 01:50:04,960
years ago with a biologist named Howard

2568
01:50:03,040 --> 01:50:06,960
Teman

2569
01:50:04,960 --> 01:50:09,760
and he had won the he later won the no

2570
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:11,760
he at that point had won the Nobel Prize

2571
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:13,280
for his work on what's called reverse

2572
01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:15,679
transcriptise

2573
01:50:13,280 --> 01:50:18,320
and uh

2574
01:50:15,679 --> 01:50:20,560
paragraph in two paragraphs I tell you I

2575
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:23,679
met this guy

2576
01:50:20,560 --> 01:50:28,159
but he wasn't the typical scientist.

2577
01:50:23,679 --> 01:50:30,960
Second sentence or the third sentence is

2578
01:50:28,159 --> 01:50:34,000
he was raised by activist parents in

2579
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:37,679
Philadelphia. His bar mitzvah money was

2580
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:39,199
given to a refugee camp. When he gave

2581
01:50:37,679 --> 01:50:40,560
his valadictory address, when he gave

2582
01:50:39,199 --> 01:50:42,719
the valadictory address at his high

2583
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:44,400
school, he spoke about the hydrogen

2584
01:50:42,719 --> 01:50:47,679
bomb.

2585
01:50:44,400 --> 01:50:49,679
So you have scientist, Nobel Prize

2586
01:50:47,679 --> 01:50:52,800
winner. You you have a notion of what he

2587
01:50:49,679 --> 01:50:54,880
is. He's the nerd. He's buried himself

2588
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:56,800
in the lab. He's so smart. We can't

2589
01:50:54,880 --> 01:51:00,080
understand him. And then we're like,

2590
01:50:56,800 --> 01:51:03,199
wait, his parents are activists.

2591
01:51:00,080 --> 01:51:04,800
Bar mitzvah money got given away. So, we

2592
01:51:03,199 --> 01:51:09,600
know he's we can locate him all of a

2593
01:51:04,800 --> 01:51:12,639
sudden. We know that he's he's Jewish.

2594
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:14,159
He's from he's from that, you know, his

2595
01:51:12,639 --> 01:51:15,520
parents are activists. So, we suddenly

2596
01:51:14,159 --> 01:51:16,800
sense, oh, maybe he's political. You

2597
01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:18,480
know, we have a kind of sense of where

2598
01:51:16,800 --> 01:51:20,239
he places himself in the sociological

2599
01:51:18,480 --> 01:51:23,280
firm firmament.

2600
01:51:20,239 --> 01:51:25,679
And then a kind of selflessness

2601
01:51:23,280 --> 01:51:28,880
gives he's 13 gives his money away to

2602
01:51:25,679 --> 01:51:30,719
like a refugee camp. And then we have he

2603
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:32,719
was the valadictorian. Oh, brilliance at

2604
01:51:30,719 --> 01:51:35,199
an early age. But what does he talk

2605
01:51:32,719 --> 01:51:39,040
about? He talks about the fact that the

2606
01:51:35,199 --> 01:51:40,960
world could get blown up. And then

2607
01:51:39,040 --> 01:51:42,880
um the la last line of the first

2608
01:51:40,960 --> 01:51:44,639
paragraph is

2609
01:51:42,880 --> 01:51:46,719
that during our conversation he didn't

2610
01:51:44,639 --> 01:51:48,880
talk about science, he talked about

2611
01:51:46,719 --> 01:51:51,679
philosophy and literature.

2612
01:51:48,880 --> 01:51:53,920
So I go to visit a man who has won the

2613
01:51:51,679 --> 01:51:55,840
highest prize that can be given to a

2614
01:51:53,920 --> 01:51:58,239
scientist and he doesn't talk about

2615
01:51:55,840 --> 01:52:00,320
science. Right? And that's the whole

2616
01:51:58,239 --> 01:52:02,159
point. The whole point of this little

2617
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:04,960
thing that we're writing together is to

2618
01:52:02,159 --> 01:52:07,440
talk about what is the benefit to a

2619
01:52:04,960 --> 01:52:10,320
scientist of learning something outside

2620
01:52:07,440 --> 01:52:13,040
of science. How does are you a better

2621
01:52:10,320 --> 01:52:14,560
scientist if you know stuff that has

2622
01:52:13,040 --> 01:52:16,080
nothing to do with science? And my

2623
01:52:14,560 --> 01:52:19,199
argument about Teman that I make was

2624
01:52:16,080 --> 01:52:21,119
that it was Teman's reading in

2625
01:52:19,199 --> 01:52:23,840
literature and philosophy that allowed

2626
01:52:21,119 --> 01:52:26,000
him to make this radical jump that

2627
01:52:23,840 --> 01:52:29,199
resulted in his Nobel Prize. That's my

2628
01:52:26,000 --> 01:52:31,119
argument anyway. That the habit of mind

2629
01:52:29,199 --> 01:52:33,760
that led to his scientific discovery was

2630
01:52:31,119 --> 01:52:37,520
a literary habit of mind.

2631
01:52:33,760 --> 01:52:41,440
But this, you know, Howard Teman with

2632
01:52:37,520 --> 01:52:43,679
his crazy hair and his dancing eyes is

2633
01:52:41,440 --> 01:52:45,840
just a really quick way to get to it.

2634
01:52:43,679 --> 01:52:48,320
You know, I I want to get I want you I

2635
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:51,760
want you boom in that frame of mind of,

2636
01:52:48,320 --> 01:52:55,040
oh, this brilliant scientist gave his

2637
01:52:51,760 --> 01:52:56,880
bar mitzvah money away, right? You know

2638
01:52:55,040 --> 01:52:58,960
what did that mean? That's what I that's

2639
01:52:56,880 --> 01:53:02,920
what I want you. And I get I try to I

2640
01:52:58,960 --> 01:53:02,920
get you there by sentence three.

2641
01:53:13,360 --> 01:53:18,080
So I want to talk a little bit about

2642
01:53:16,480 --> 01:53:20,159
establishing

2643
01:53:18,080 --> 01:53:24,639
worlds

2644
01:53:20,159 --> 01:53:28,239
that um you know the as there is as much

2645
01:53:24,639 --> 01:53:30,639
value in describing the world someone

2646
01:53:28,239 --> 01:53:32,320
inhabits the physical space they inhabit

2647
01:53:30,639 --> 01:53:35,199
as

2648
01:53:32,320 --> 01:53:37,599
the person themsself. So a simple way of

2649
01:53:35,199 --> 01:53:39,599
thinking about this is

2650
01:53:37,599 --> 01:53:41,920
uh

2651
01:53:39,599 --> 01:53:43,440
imagine if you were going to describe

2652
01:53:41,920 --> 01:53:45,520
your

2653
01:53:43,440 --> 01:53:48,159
uh

2654
01:53:45,520 --> 01:53:49,840
sib one of your siblings

2655
01:53:48,159 --> 01:53:51,599
um to an audience, a general audience.

2656
01:53:49,840 --> 01:53:54,480
And I give you a choice. You could

2657
01:53:51,599 --> 01:53:57,760
either go into your siblings room and

2658
01:53:54,480 --> 01:54:00,159
describe the contents of his or her

2659
01:53:57,760 --> 01:54:02,159
closet, bookshelf, the way the room

2660
01:54:00,159 --> 01:54:05,440
looks, the posters on the wall or what

2661
01:54:02,159 --> 01:54:07,520
have you. Or you can just describe

2662
01:54:05,440 --> 01:54:09,920
your sibling as a person, what they look

2663
01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:13,199
like, how they walk and talk. What's

2664
01:54:09,920 --> 01:54:15,199
better? I actually kind of think that

2665
01:54:13,199 --> 01:54:18,239
you get a better sense of your of

2666
01:54:15,199 --> 01:54:20,480
someone by describing their bedroom.

2667
01:54:18,239 --> 01:54:23,679
or at least the bedroom

2668
01:54:20,480 --> 01:54:25,440
is just as good. If if you went into,

2669
01:54:23,679 --> 01:54:28,400
you know, if you if you just walked

2670
01:54:25,440 --> 01:54:30,960
through my apartment without me there

2671
01:54:28,400 --> 01:54:34,719
and just made just describe what you

2672
01:54:30,960 --> 01:54:36,960
saw, you would have an you would have an

2673
01:54:34,719 --> 01:54:38,159
incredibly effective portrait of me. I

2674
01:54:36,960 --> 01:54:40,560
mean, you wouldn't know that I was

2675
01:54:38,159 --> 01:54:42,000
skinny and had curly hair, but actually

2676
01:54:40,560 --> 01:54:45,119
you kind of would because you could see

2677
01:54:42,000 --> 01:54:46,960
my clothes. But just by poking around my

2678
01:54:45,119 --> 01:54:52,159
closet and looking at the books on and

2679
01:54:46,960 --> 01:54:54,880
is is my apartment messy or tidy? Is it

2680
01:54:52,159 --> 01:54:56,400
um how are things arranged? What's in

2681
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:58,239
the fridge? I mean, there's tons of

2682
01:54:56,400 --> 01:55:02,159
things you could learn about me. Anyway,

2683
01:54:58,239 --> 01:55:04,960
so I'm always a big I'm more I'm a I'm a

2684
01:55:02,159 --> 01:55:07,199
bedroom person, not a not a personal

2685
01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:09,920
description person. I'm a space person,

2686
01:55:07,199 --> 01:55:14,239
not a person person. So this is an

2687
01:55:09,920 --> 01:55:16,960
example of so this isn't a terribly good

2688
01:55:14,239 --> 01:55:19,840
description but it works in context.

2689
01:55:16,960 --> 01:55:21,040
It's an article I wrote years ago about

2690
01:55:19,840 --> 01:55:23,440
I'm talking about the world of

2691
01:55:21,040 --> 01:55:26,239
advertising in the 1960s.

2692
01:55:23,440 --> 01:55:29,119
Um when

2693
01:55:26,239 --> 01:55:31,119
advertising mattered we it sort of

2694
01:55:29,119 --> 01:55:32,960
doesn't matter in the same way then now

2695
01:55:31,119 --> 01:55:36,080
but back then it was a really really big

2696
01:55:32,960 --> 01:55:38,239
deal. people went into advertising who

2697
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:39,599
today would go to Hollywood or Silicon

2698
01:55:38,239 --> 01:55:41,679
Valley. I mean, it was the place that

2699
01:55:39,599 --> 01:55:45,199
captured the best and the brightest. And

2700
01:55:41,679 --> 01:55:48,960
there was a legendary ad firm um that

2701
01:55:45,199 --> 01:55:51,679
was called Tinker. and Tinker

2702
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:54,800
and I'm describing I'm talking about a a

2703
01:55:51,679 --> 01:55:57,679
woman named Hera Herszog who worked for

2704
01:55:54,800 --> 01:56:01,599
Tinker and Hera Herzog was essentially a

2705
01:55:57,679 --> 01:56:03,840
Freudian analyst and Tinker was this

2706
01:56:01,599 --> 01:56:06,239
sort of was the hippest advertising

2707
01:56:03,840 --> 01:56:08,400
agency of the day it was madmen on

2708
01:56:06,239 --> 01:56:11,360
steroids and they decided they needed to

2709
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:14,560
have a Freudian analyst on their staff

2710
01:56:11,360 --> 01:56:16,159
and so I'm I we've met herzog who's now

2711
01:56:14,560 --> 01:56:17,599
in her 90s and lives in the Alps in

2712
01:56:16,159 --> 01:56:20,639
Switzerland that I somehow managed to

2713
01:56:17,599 --> 01:56:23,520
con my editor descending me to go and

2714
01:56:20,639 --> 01:56:24,800
see her to Herszog and she was like very

2715
01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:26,560
close to the end of her life and she was

2716
01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:28,880
actually in an oxygen tent the entire

2717
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:31,360
time. It was this crazy thing but I want

2718
01:56:28,880 --> 01:56:33,679
to describe the heyday of her career

2719
01:56:31,360 --> 01:56:36,480
when she worked for Tinker.

2720
01:56:33,679 --> 01:56:38,400
Um so I begin the description with

2721
01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:40,880
Herszog worked at a small advertising

2722
01:56:38,400 --> 01:56:42,400
agency called Jack Tinker and Partners.

2723
01:56:40,880 --> 01:56:44,400
And people who were in the business in

2724
01:56:42,400 --> 01:56:46,639
those days speak of Tinker the way

2725
01:56:44,400 --> 01:56:48,239
baseball fans talk about the 1927

2726
01:56:46,639 --> 01:56:50,080
Yankees.

2727
01:56:48,239 --> 01:56:53,440
And so you right away you get a sense of

2728
01:56:50,080 --> 01:56:56,159
like, oh, it's like this was the place.

2729
01:56:53,440 --> 01:56:58,719
And Tinker was the brainchild of the

2730
01:56:56,159 --> 01:57:00,159
legendary adman Marian Harper, who came

2731
01:56:58,719 --> 01:57:02,159
to believe that the agency he was

2732
01:57:00,159 --> 01:57:03,840
running, Macccan Ericson, was too big

2733
01:57:02,159 --> 01:57:06,960
and unwieldy to be able to consider

2734
01:57:03,840 --> 01:57:08,400
things properly. His solution was to

2735
01:57:06,960 --> 01:57:10,639
pluck a handful of the very best and

2736
01:57:08,400 --> 01:57:13,440
brightest from Macan and set them up

2737
01:57:10,639 --> 01:57:15,440
first in the Waldoff Towers in the suite

2738
01:57:13,440 --> 01:57:17,360
directly below the Duke and Duchess of

2739
01:57:15,440 --> 01:57:19,280
Windsor and directly above General

2740
01:57:17,360 --> 01:57:22,080
Douglas MacArthur and then more

2741
01:57:19,280 --> 01:57:24,239
permanently in the Dorset Hotel on West

2742
01:57:22,080 --> 01:57:26,719
54th Street overlooking the Museum of

2743
01:57:24,239 --> 01:57:29,760
Modern Art. The Tinker Group rented the

2744
01:57:26,719 --> 01:57:32,239
penthouse complete with a huge terrace,

2745
01:57:29,760 --> 01:57:34,560
Venetian tile floors, a double height

2746
01:57:32,239 --> 01:57:37,360
living room, an antique French polished

2747
01:57:34,560 --> 01:57:39,520
Peter bar, a marble fireplace,

2748
01:57:37,360 --> 01:57:42,080
spectacular skyline views, and a

2749
01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:44,400
rotating exhibit of modern art hung by

2750
01:57:42,080 --> 01:57:46,320
the partners for motivational purposes

2751
01:57:44,400 --> 01:57:49,199
with everything,

2752
01:57:46,320 --> 01:57:53,520
walls, carpets, ceilings furnishing a

2753
01:57:49,199 --> 01:57:56,560
bright, dazzling white. And so like you

2754
01:57:53,520 --> 01:57:59,040
understand this is crazy, right? It's

2755
01:57:56,560 --> 01:58:01,440
like it's not like the first of all it

2756
01:57:59,040 --> 01:58:04,159
tells you about the 60s. Today they'd be

2757
01:58:01,440 --> 01:58:06,560
in a warehouse with like a pingpong

2758
01:58:04,159 --> 01:58:11,360
table and you know it today the

2759
01:58:06,560 --> 01:58:14,639
aesthetic of hip firms is to be kind of

2760
01:58:11,360 --> 01:58:16,560
industrial and edgy. And back then, oh

2761
01:58:14,639 --> 01:58:18,239
no, back then it was like everything in

2762
01:58:16,560 --> 01:58:20,800
white, modern art in the walls, the

2763
01:58:18,239 --> 01:58:23,360
penthouse overlooking, you know, MoMA or

2764
01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:26,080
one floor down from the Duke and Duchess

2765
01:58:23,360 --> 01:58:28,080
of Windsor. Like they're like that's how

2766
01:58:26,080 --> 01:58:31,520
kind of I mean just gives you a flavor

2767
01:58:28,080 --> 01:58:33,520
of what was going on at that time. And

2768
01:58:31,520 --> 01:58:35,360
the idea that in the middle of this

2769
01:58:33,520 --> 01:58:37,679
crazy everything painted white is like

2770
01:58:35,360 --> 01:58:39,040
so 60s. It's fantastic. And you can just

2771
01:58:37,679 --> 01:58:41,040
imagine in your mind the way they're

2772
01:58:39,040 --> 01:58:43,760
dressed, right? I mean the whole nine

2773
01:58:41,040 --> 01:58:47,199
yards. And then in the middle of this is

2774
01:58:43,760 --> 01:58:49,679
this woman Hera Herzog who's like a

2775
01:58:47,199 --> 01:58:52,159
she's like a vianese trained

2776
01:58:49,679 --> 01:58:57,440
psychoanalyst. Right. So you're the the

2777
01:58:52,159 --> 01:59:00,320
the juxiposition of Hera with her insane

2778
01:58:57,440 --> 01:59:02,880
vianese accent in the middle of this

2779
01:59:00,320 --> 01:59:04,639
crazy penthouse painted white. That's

2780
01:59:02,880 --> 01:59:06,639
what I want. Like I want I want you to

2781
01:59:04,639 --> 01:59:08,719
see her in the space. And it's that's

2782
01:59:06,639 --> 01:59:10,960
what's kind of arresting about the

2783
01:59:08,719 --> 01:59:14,080
image. This is a good description of

2784
01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:16,719
her. This is just for fun. I interviewed

2785
01:59:14,080 --> 01:59:18,719
all the people who knew Hera Herzog. Her

2786
01:59:16,719 --> 01:59:20,400
was graceful and gentle and articulate.

2787
01:59:18,719 --> 01:59:22,719
Herbert Krugman who worked closely with

2788
01:59:20,400 --> 01:59:25,119
Herzog in those years says she had

2789
01:59:22,719 --> 01:59:26,880
enormous insights. Alka-Seltzer was a

2790
01:59:25,119 --> 01:59:28,880
client of ours and they were discussing

2791
01:59:26,880 --> 01:59:30,960
new approaches for the next commercial.

2792
01:59:28,880 --> 01:59:32,880
She said, "You show a hand dropping an

2793
01:59:30,960 --> 01:59:35,199
Alka-Seltzer tablet into a glass of

2794
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:39,199
water. Why not show the hand dropping

2795
01:59:35,199 --> 01:59:41,679
two? You'll double sales."

2796
01:59:39,199 --> 01:59:44,719
That's so fantastic. By the way, the

2797
01:59:41,679 --> 01:59:46,880
fantastic thing is it was the Freudian

2798
01:59:44,719 --> 01:59:48,800
analyst from Vienna who's like, "Just

2799
01:59:46,880 --> 01:59:50,320
drop in two and you'll have twice as

2800
01:59:48,800 --> 01:59:52,239
many. You'll sell twice as many

2801
01:59:50,320 --> 01:59:54,560
tablets." I mean, it's just the whole

2802
01:59:52,239 --> 01:59:57,520
thing is just like

2803
01:59:54,560 --> 01:59:59,199
so crazy and so bananas. And the fact

2804
01:59:57,520 --> 02:00:02,560
that, you know, it's all taking place in

2805
01:59:59,199 --> 02:00:06,480
a white painted penthouse full of modern

2806
02:00:02,560 --> 02:00:09,040
art is with like French antique Peter

2807
02:00:06,480 --> 02:00:11,440
bar and a marble fireplace is just

2808
02:00:09,040 --> 02:00:13,520
that's just the payoff. After retiring

2809
02:00:11,440 --> 02:00:15,040
from Tinker, Herszog moved back to

2810
02:00:13,520 --> 02:00:17,199
Europe, first to Germany and then to

2811
02:00:15,040 --> 02:00:19,199
Austria, her homeland. She wrote an

2812
02:00:17,199 --> 02:00:22,719
analysis of the TV show Dallas for the

2813
02:00:19,199 --> 02:00:24,800
academic journal Society. Like I mean

2814
02:00:22,719 --> 02:00:29,239
right then and there you get a sense of

2815
02:00:24,800 --> 02:00:29,239
the pure nuttiness of these characters.

2816
02:00:33,119 --> 02:00:38,000
It's useful sometimes to think of

2817
02:00:34,960 --> 02:00:41,679
yourself if you're a writer as a the way

2818
02:00:38,000 --> 02:00:44,719
an athlete thinks of themselves. Um

2819
02:00:41,679 --> 02:00:48,000
athletes practice. They spend way more

2820
02:00:44,719 --> 02:00:50,480
time practicing than they do playing. Um

2821
02:00:48,000 --> 02:00:53,440
so you should practice your writing. Um,

2822
02:00:50,480 --> 02:00:55,119
I I talked a little bit about how much

2823
02:00:53,440 --> 02:00:57,040
can be learned about someone by

2824
02:00:55,119 --> 02:01:00,239
describing where they live, what their

2825
02:00:57,040 --> 02:01:03,599
room looks like. That's a good

2826
02:01:00,239 --> 02:01:07,760
that's a good practice session. Go to

2827
02:01:03,599 --> 02:01:11,520
someone who you know's bedroom and spend

2828
02:01:07,760 --> 02:01:13,920
a good hour there and then try and

2829
02:01:11,520 --> 02:01:16,800
describe them. Do a kind of profile of

2830
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:18,719
your friend just through the contents of

2831
02:01:16,800 --> 02:01:21,599
their bedroom.

2832
02:01:18,719 --> 02:01:24,560
How closely, how well can you summon

2833
02:01:21,599 --> 02:01:29,960
your friend for a reader just by

2834
02:01:24,560 --> 02:01:29,960
describing their most intimate space?

2835
02:01:33,760 --> 02:01:38,480
Another good another fun writing

2836
02:01:35,199 --> 02:01:42,080
exercise that's analogous to writing

2837
02:01:38,480 --> 02:01:43,920
about someone's room instead of them is

2838
02:01:42,080 --> 02:01:46,480
to write about someone entirely through

2839
02:01:43,920 --> 02:01:49,440
the eyes of their friends and family.

2840
02:01:46,480 --> 02:01:51,119
So, do a profile of someone where you

2841
02:01:49,440 --> 02:01:53,440
deliberately never talk to the person

2842
02:01:51,119 --> 02:01:56,560
that you're profiling, but just talk to

2843
02:01:53,440 --> 02:01:58,159
people around them. Um, co-workers,

2844
02:01:56,560 --> 02:02:00,400
friends,

2845
02:01:58,159 --> 02:02:02,400
family, siblings, parents, anyone you

2846
02:02:00,400 --> 02:02:04,719
can come up with who has a perspective

2847
02:02:02,400 --> 02:02:06,480
on them. Um, and try and summon them

2848
02:02:04,719 --> 02:02:09,360
that way. And then at the end, it might

2849
02:02:06,480 --> 02:02:12,400
be useful, you know, show it to the to

2850
02:02:09,360 --> 02:02:15,199
the subject to the to the the absent

2851
02:02:12,400 --> 02:02:17,599
subject and see what they think. And

2852
02:02:15,199 --> 02:02:20,560
it's and and then also reflect about how

2853
02:02:17,599 --> 02:02:21,760
different that profile turned out than

2854
02:02:20,560 --> 02:02:23,520
if you had talked to the person

2855
02:02:21,760 --> 02:02:25,840
themselves.

2856
02:02:23,520 --> 02:02:28,880
You have a kind of

2857
02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:30,320
uh friends say your friends describe you

2858
02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:32,880
very differently than you describe

2859
02:02:30,320 --> 02:02:34,480
yourself. So when you do a construct a

2860
02:02:32,880 --> 02:02:36,239
profile entirely through the eyes of

2861
02:02:34,480 --> 02:02:38,560
friends, you construct a different

2862
02:02:36,239 --> 02:02:40,639
profile and you can sort of answer the

2863
02:02:38,560 --> 02:02:42,880
question, do you prefer this one to the

2864
02:02:40,639 --> 02:02:45,679
one that you would construct by talking

2865
02:02:42,880 --> 02:02:47,199
to the subject? Sometimes

2866
02:02:45,679 --> 02:02:50,159
uh sometimes you will you'll find you

2867
02:02:47,199 --> 02:02:54,080
really do. I actually

2868
02:02:50,159 --> 02:02:57,040
I much prefer constructing profiles from

2869
02:02:54,080 --> 02:03:01,599
uh from people within someone's circle.

2870
02:02:57,040 --> 02:03:07,040
I think you get a better a way

2871
02:03:01,599 --> 02:03:08,960
uh more telling uh portrait from friends

2872
02:03:07,040 --> 02:03:12,440
than from

2873
02:03:08,960 --> 02:03:12,440
the person themselves.

2874
02:03:17,199 --> 02:03:23,199
So, this is a book. This is a a a

2875
02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:26,960
profile I wrote of Ron Papiel. Um, one

2876
02:03:23,199 --> 02:03:30,719
of my favorite prof profiles. He is the

2877
02:03:26,960 --> 02:03:33,360
creator of and salesman of uh a variety

2878
02:03:30,719 --> 02:03:34,800
of kitchen gadgets and the Showtime

2879
02:03:33,360 --> 02:03:37,520
rotisserie oven, which is the real

2880
02:03:34,800 --> 02:03:40,960
subject of of this um particular

2881
02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:44,239
profile. And I want to read start by

2882
02:03:40,960 --> 02:03:47,760
reading the first

2883
02:03:44,239 --> 02:03:50,639
uh line of the the opening line of the

2884
02:03:47,760 --> 02:03:53,280
profile. The extraordinary story of the

2885
02:03:50,639 --> 02:03:55,520
Ronco Showtime rotisserie and barbecue

2886
02:03:53,280 --> 02:03:57,840
begins with Nathan Morris, the son of

2887
02:03:55,520 --> 02:03:59,360
the shoemaker and caner kidders Morris

2888
02:03:57,840 --> 02:04:01,760
who came over from the old country in

2889
02:03:59,360 --> 02:04:03,679
the 1880s and settled in Ashbury Park,

2890
02:04:01,760 --> 02:04:06,159
New Jersey.

2891
02:04:03,679 --> 02:04:08,080
Nathan Morris was a pitchman. He worked

2892
02:04:06,159 --> 02:04:09,679
the boardwalk and the five and dimes and

2893
02:04:08,080 --> 02:04:12,639
country fairs up and down the Atlantic

2894
02:04:09,679 --> 02:04:15,360
coast selling kit gadgets made by Acme

2895
02:04:12,639 --> 02:04:17,920
Metal out of Newark. In the early 40s,

2896
02:04:15,360 --> 02:04:20,880
Nathan set up NK Morris manufacturing

2897
02:04:17,920 --> 02:04:23,280
turning out the Kiki Pie and the Morris

2898
02:04:20,880 --> 02:04:25,199
metric slicer. And perhaps because it

2899
02:04:23,280 --> 02:04:27,360
was a depression and job prospects were

2900
02:04:25,199 --> 02:04:29,520
dim, or perhaps because Nathan Morris

2901
02:04:27,360 --> 02:04:31,840
made such a compelling case for his new

2902
02:04:29,520 --> 02:04:33,599
profession. One by one, the members of

2903
02:04:31,840 --> 02:04:36,080
his family followed him into the

2904
02:04:33,599 --> 02:04:37,840
business. His sons, Lester Morris and

2905
02:04:36,080 --> 02:04:40,080
Arnold the knife Morris became his

2906
02:04:37,840 --> 02:04:42,239
pitchmen. He set up his brother-in-law,

2907
02:04:40,080 --> 02:04:44,719
Irving Rosen Blum, who was to make a

2908
02:04:42,239 --> 02:04:46,800
fortune on Long Island in plastic goods,

2909
02:04:44,719 --> 02:04:49,040
including a handgrader of such

2910
02:04:46,800 --> 02:04:50,960
excellence that Nathan paid homage to it

2911
02:04:49,040 --> 02:04:53,679
with his own Dutch kitchen shredder

2912
02:04:50,960 --> 02:04:56,320
grater. He partnered with his brother

2913
02:04:53,679 --> 02:04:58,159
Al, whose own sons worked the boardwalk

2914
02:04:56,320 --> 02:05:01,040
alongside a gangly Irishman by the name

2915
02:04:58,159 --> 02:05:03,360
of Ed McMahon. Then one summer just

2916
02:05:01,040 --> 02:05:07,920
before the war, Nathan took on as an

2917
02:05:03,360 --> 02:05:10,159
apprentice his nephew Samuel Jacob Poil.

2918
02:05:07,920 --> 02:05:12,080
SJ as he was known was so inspired by

2919
02:05:10,159 --> 02:05:14,800
his uncle Nathan that he went on to

2920
02:05:12,080 --> 02:05:16,960
found Poil Brothers based in Chicago and

2921
02:05:14,800 --> 02:05:20,080
brought the world the dilemmatic, the

2922
02:05:16,960 --> 02:05:22,560
Chapamatic and the Veomatic. SJ Papille

2923
02:05:20,080 --> 02:05:24,960
had two sons. The elder was Jerry who

2924
02:05:22,560 --> 02:05:26,639
died young. The younger is familiar to

2925
02:05:24,960 --> 02:05:28,800
anyone who has ever watched an

2926
02:05:26,639 --> 02:05:31,599
infomercial on late night television.

2927
02:05:28,800 --> 02:05:34,080
His name is Ron Papiel.

2928
02:05:31,599 --> 02:05:36,400
Now

2929
02:05:34,080 --> 02:05:40,639
that incredibly lengthy beginning,

2930
02:05:36,400 --> 02:05:44,880
there's a point to it which is that

2931
02:05:40,639 --> 02:05:47,199
this is a profile of Ron Papiel. But

2932
02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:51,360
what is interesting about Ron Pille is

2933
02:05:47,199 --> 02:05:53,440
his family and where he comes from. He

2934
02:05:51,360 --> 02:05:56,560
is a perfectly

2935
02:05:53,440 --> 02:05:58,159
charming, intelligent person. He's not

2936
02:05:56,560 --> 02:06:01,119
fascinating. I mean, I don't mean that

2937
02:05:58,159 --> 02:06:04,080
in any way to to

2938
02:06:01,119 --> 02:06:08,480
as a criticism of him.

2939
02:06:04,080 --> 02:06:10,960
He's he's not the most kind of uh what

2940
02:06:08,480 --> 02:06:12,800
is if I had to locate the kind of the

2941
02:06:10,960 --> 02:06:15,440
thing that would draw you into the story

2942
02:06:12,800 --> 02:06:18,560
of Rampil, it is the world in which he

2943
02:06:15,440 --> 02:06:21,040
is immersed and the all of the

2944
02:06:18,560 --> 02:06:24,400
significant conflicts in his life are

2945
02:06:21,040 --> 02:06:26,719
with his own heritage. He did what he

2946
02:06:24,400 --> 02:06:30,239
did in part out of an attempt to emulate

2947
02:06:26,719 --> 02:06:32,560
his father but also because his his

2948
02:06:30,239 --> 02:06:34,320
father out of a reaction to his father

2949
02:06:32,560 --> 02:06:37,280
who was not a good father who really

2950
02:06:34,320 --> 02:06:39,360
abandoned him and there's this the

2951
02:06:37,280 --> 02:06:42,400
underlying story of his career is an

2952
02:06:39,360 --> 02:06:44,800
attempt to kind of win his father's

2953
02:06:42,400 --> 02:06:47,679
absent approval right so there's a

2954
02:06:44,800 --> 02:06:49,760
psychological element there and also the

2955
02:06:47,679 --> 02:06:50,960
colorful the characters in his family

2956
02:06:49,760 --> 02:06:52,639
were all the ones in the previous

2957
02:06:50,960 --> 02:06:55,360
generations the ones who I just went

2958
02:06:52,639 --> 02:06:58,239
True. So what I want to the beginning of

2959
02:06:55,360 --> 02:07:01,679
that story is an attempt to tell you

2960
02:06:58,239 --> 02:07:03,679
this is a story about a family and about

2961
02:07:01,679 --> 02:07:05,520
a heritage.

2962
02:07:03,679 --> 02:07:08,480
And I'm going to end up talking about

2963
02:07:05,520 --> 02:07:11,280
this one guy Ron Papiel. But Ron Papiel

2964
02:07:08,480 --> 02:07:13,360
does not exist outside of this history.

2965
02:07:11,280 --> 02:07:16,239
Other people exist outside their

2966
02:07:13,360 --> 02:07:18,320
history. Right? You can talk very

2967
02:07:16,239 --> 02:07:20,560
happily. Who ever talks about Albert

2968
02:07:18,320 --> 02:07:24,000
Einstein's father or mother? No one ever

2969
02:07:20,560 --> 02:07:26,639
does. I mean, in a biography, but if I

2970
02:07:24,000 --> 02:07:29,520
was talking about if I was writing 5,000

2971
02:07:26,639 --> 02:07:32,159
words on Albert Einstein, I wouldn't

2972
02:07:29,520 --> 02:07:34,639
talk to you about his parents. Wouldn't

2973
02:07:32,159 --> 02:07:36,560
seem relevant. If I was writing 5,000

2974
02:07:34,639 --> 02:07:39,040
words about

2975
02:07:36,560 --> 02:07:41,920
Shaquille O'Neal, I might mention his

2976
02:07:39,040 --> 02:07:44,079
father in passing, but Shaq is kind of

2977
02:07:41,920 --> 02:07:47,840
his own thing, right?

2978
02:07:44,079 --> 02:07:49,440
Michael Jordan, I would talk about other

2979
02:07:47,840 --> 02:07:52,800
people in his life, probably not his

2980
02:07:49,440 --> 02:07:54,400
parents or his upbringing, but Ron, you

2981
02:07:52,800 --> 02:07:56,560
can't talk about him without talking

2982
02:07:54,400 --> 02:07:59,119
about the fact that he's the third

2983
02:07:56,560 --> 02:08:01,360
generation of people who pitch pitching

2984
02:07:59,119 --> 02:08:04,400
gadgets. So, I think you got to start

2985
02:08:01,360 --> 02:08:06,480
with that. Now having established that

2986
02:08:04,400 --> 02:08:10,719
fact that he is a creature of where he

2987
02:08:06,480 --> 02:08:14,159
comes from that means that I have to

2988
02:08:10,719 --> 02:08:17,599
delay my discussion of

2989
02:08:14,159 --> 02:08:19,280
Ron Poil as an individual because we're

2990
02:08:17,599 --> 02:08:21,119
not thinking about him as an individual

2991
02:08:19,280 --> 02:08:23,440
to begin. We're thinking about him as

2992
02:08:21,119 --> 02:08:25,360
the heir to a legacy.

2993
02:08:23,440 --> 02:08:29,040
So as a result, this is a piece that's

2994
02:08:25,360 --> 02:08:31,040
probably 8,000 words. Um,

2995
02:08:29,040 --> 02:08:34,719
I give you a brief physical description

2996
02:08:31,040 --> 02:08:36,800
of him in the next section. Ron Papil is

2997
02:08:34,719 --> 02:08:39,119
a handsome man, thick through the chest

2998
02:08:36,800 --> 02:08:41,440
and shoulders with a leonine head and

2999
02:08:39,119 --> 02:08:43,360
striking oversized features. He is in

3000
02:08:41,440 --> 02:08:45,679
his mid60s and lives in Beverly Hills

3001
02:08:43,360 --> 02:08:47,119
halfway up Cold Water Canyon in a

3002
02:08:45,679 --> 02:08:49,440
sprawling bungalow with a stand of

3003
02:08:47,119 --> 02:08:51,440
avocado trees and a vegetable garden out

3004
02:08:49,440 --> 02:08:55,040
back and tell you a little bit more

3005
02:08:51,440 --> 02:08:56,639
about him. And then that's it. We meet

3006
02:08:55,040 --> 02:08:59,599
him, but we're not giving you we're not

3007
02:08:56,639 --> 02:09:04,639
coloring in Ron Papiel any more than

3008
02:08:59,599 --> 02:09:06,639
that until pages go by. And I talk about

3009
02:09:04,639 --> 02:09:08,719
his dad in great great detail. I talk

3010
02:09:06,639 --> 02:09:10,320
about his uncles in great great detail.

3011
02:09:08,719 --> 02:09:13,760
We meet his patent attorney, his

3012
02:09:10,320 --> 02:09:16,400
partner. We meet his, you know, we meet

3013
02:09:13,760 --> 02:09:19,440
Arnold the knife Morris, his cousin, who

3014
02:09:16,400 --> 02:09:21,119
was this famous was a guy who who would

3015
02:09:19,440 --> 02:09:22,320
who pitched the Ginsu knife on

3016
02:09:21,119 --> 02:09:25,760
television, if you remember that on late

3017
02:09:22,320 --> 02:09:28,239
night TV. And I go to Asbury Park and I

3018
02:09:25,760 --> 02:09:31,360
meet all these characters. I go to the

3019
02:09:28,239 --> 02:09:35,360
grave site where his family is buried.

3020
02:09:31,360 --> 02:09:38,480
And then pages in, twothirds, 3/4 of the

3021
02:09:35,360 --> 02:09:41,360
way in, I finally come back to Ron and I

3022
02:09:38,480 --> 02:09:45,040
tell you about his childhood.

3023
02:09:41,360 --> 02:09:46,719
Um, because now I feel you're ready to

3024
02:09:45,040 --> 02:09:50,400
hear about his childhood. I filled in

3025
02:09:46,719 --> 02:09:52,960
all the other blanks and suddenly the

3026
02:09:50,400 --> 02:09:55,840
facts about his childhood mean something

3027
02:09:52,960 --> 02:09:57,760
because this is a man for whom family is

3028
02:09:55,840 --> 02:10:02,000
everything. Everything that he has done

3029
02:09:57,760 --> 02:10:03,840
in his life is a function of his

3030
02:10:02,000 --> 02:10:05,920
these generations of pitchmen. His

3031
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:09,360
professional life, his personal identity

3032
02:10:05,920 --> 02:10:12,320
is bound up in the Popil legacy that

3033
02:10:09,360 --> 02:10:14,880
begins with Nathan Morris. Right. Way

3034
02:10:12,320 --> 02:10:16,320
back when. Morris Kders, whatever those

3035
02:10:14,880 --> 02:10:18,239
What were the names? Hold on. I've even

3036
02:10:16,320 --> 02:10:20,480
forgotten. That begins with Nathan

3037
02:10:18,239 --> 02:10:23,520
Morris. Yes, that's right. The son of

3038
02:10:20,480 --> 02:10:25,280
the caner kidders Morris.

3039
02:10:23,520 --> 02:10:26,719
And then I tell you about his childhood.

3040
02:10:25,280 --> 02:10:30,400
And what is the central fact about his

3041
02:10:26,719 --> 02:10:33,119
childhood? He grew up alone. Right? So

3042
02:10:30,400 --> 02:10:35,520
there's a line I want to read which is

3043
02:10:33,119 --> 02:10:39,599
the most important line in this

3044
02:10:35,520 --> 02:10:42,480
particular um account of Ron

3045
02:10:39,599 --> 02:10:44,639
and this is right at the very very end

3046
02:10:42,480 --> 02:10:47,920
of the piece.

3047
02:10:44,639 --> 02:10:50,560
Hold on. This is in the seventh if the

3048
02:10:47,920 --> 02:10:53,040
piece is divided into sections. Um this

3049
02:10:50,560 --> 02:10:56,400
is in the a total of eight sections in

3050
02:10:53,040 --> 02:10:58,079
the piece. This is the seventh section.

3051
02:10:56,400 --> 02:10:59,599
Ron Papiel did not have a happy

3052
02:10:58,079 --> 02:11:02,159
childhood.

3053
02:10:59,599 --> 02:11:03,840
We're finally very very end having gone

3054
02:11:02,159 --> 02:11:06,320
through all this stuff. His parents

3055
02:11:03,840 --> 02:11:09,360
split up when he was very young. SJ went

3056
02:11:06,320 --> 02:11:10,800
off to Chicago. His mother disappeared.

3057
02:11:09,360 --> 02:11:12,239
He and his older brother Jerry were

3058
02:11:10,800 --> 02:11:14,400
shipped off to a boarding school in

3059
02:11:12,239 --> 02:11:16,079
upstate New York. So, just so we're

3060
02:11:14,400 --> 02:11:18,719
clear,

3061
02:11:16,079 --> 02:11:20,320
his father's in Chicago,

3062
02:11:18,719 --> 02:11:23,679
alive,

3063
02:11:20,320 --> 02:11:27,760
a wealthy man, has this big business. He

3064
02:11:23,679 --> 02:11:30,320
ships his two sons off to essentially a

3065
02:11:27,760 --> 02:11:33,440
boarding school in New York halfway

3066
02:11:30,320 --> 02:11:38,719
across the country. That first weird

3067
02:11:33,440 --> 02:11:41,360
fact. And then this is Ron talking.

3068
02:11:38,719 --> 02:11:44,000
I don't remember seeing my father ever

3069
02:11:41,360 --> 02:11:45,440
until I moved to Chicago at 13. When I

3070
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:47,599
was in the boarding school, the thing I

3071
02:11:45,440 --> 02:11:49,920
remember was a Sunday when the parents

3072
02:11:47,599 --> 02:11:52,560
visited the children and my parents

3073
02:11:49,920 --> 02:11:54,639
never came. Even knowing that they

3074
02:11:52,560 --> 02:11:56,880
weren't going to show up, I walked out

3075
02:11:54,639 --> 02:11:59,760
to the perimeter and looked out over the

3076
02:11:56,880 --> 02:12:02,239
farmland and there was this road. He

3077
02:11:59,760 --> 02:12:04,560
made an undulating motion with his hand

3078
02:12:02,239 --> 02:12:06,320
to suggest a road stretching off into

3079
02:12:04,560 --> 02:12:08,800
the distance.

3080
02:12:06,320 --> 02:12:10,719
I remember standing on the road crying,

3081
02:12:08,800 --> 02:12:13,520
looking for the movement of a car miles

3082
02:12:10,719 --> 02:12:16,719
away, hoping that it was my mother and

3083
02:12:13,520 --> 02:12:20,159
father, and they never came. That's all

3084
02:12:16,719 --> 02:12:22,880
I remember about boarding school.

3085
02:12:20,159 --> 02:12:24,639
Ron remained perfectly still. I still

3086
02:12:22,880 --> 02:12:27,920
don't remember ever having a birthday

3087
02:12:24,639 --> 02:12:30,079
party in my life. And he goes on to talk

3088
02:12:27,920 --> 02:12:32,000
about all the things he doesn't he never

3089
02:12:30,079 --> 02:12:33,599
had.

3090
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:36,079
And

3091
02:12:33,599 --> 02:12:38,320
that little fact about him, had I told

3092
02:12:36,079 --> 02:12:40,719
you that at the beginning, you would

3093
02:12:38,320 --> 02:12:43,360
have said that's sad. But you would have

3094
02:12:40,719 --> 02:12:45,199
said this is a man who has heroically

3095
02:12:43,360 --> 02:12:48,159
overcome

3096
02:12:45,199 --> 02:12:50,639
this childhood. If I tell you that at

3097
02:12:48,159 --> 02:12:53,360
the end you realize this is a man who

3098
02:12:50,639 --> 02:12:56,639
has carried that fact with him his

3099
02:12:53,360 --> 02:12:58,719
entire life and has suffered the most

3100
02:12:56,639 --> 02:13:01,440
grievous injury a man like him can

3101
02:12:58,719 --> 02:13:04,639
suffer which is to be cut off from this

3102
02:13:01,440 --> 02:13:07,199
legacy. He is the inheritor of a legacy

3103
02:13:04,639 --> 02:13:10,320
and the legacy is not there. Right? I

3104
02:13:07,199 --> 02:13:13,679
mean it's like it's suddenly it's

3105
02:13:10,320 --> 02:13:16,320
heartbreaking. Right? And then I've told

3106
02:13:13,679 --> 02:13:19,760
you leading up to that point all of the

3107
02:13:16,320 --> 02:13:21,840
ways where as an adult Ron goes back and

3108
02:13:19,760 --> 02:13:24,079
locates all of these relatives and

3109
02:13:21,840 --> 02:13:26,639
learns from them and tries to win his

3110
02:13:24,079 --> 02:13:29,520
father's love and returns to Chicago and

3111
02:13:26,639 --> 02:13:31,440
works in his father's factory as a kid

3112
02:13:29,520 --> 02:13:34,000
as a 14-year-old. he's working in a

3113
02:13:31,440 --> 02:13:36,800
factory like making these gadgets and

3114
02:13:34,000 --> 02:13:40,800
all of a sudden all those facts take on

3115
02:13:36,800 --> 02:13:45,599
this incredibly moving heartbreaking

3116
02:13:40,800 --> 02:13:49,119
um emotional significance. And it's all

3117
02:13:45,599 --> 02:13:50,719
it's not just because of that thing he

3118
02:13:49,119 --> 02:13:53,920
says that's so heartbreaking. It's

3119
02:13:50,719 --> 02:13:57,560
because of when I tell you that thing

3120
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:57,560
makes all the difference.

3121
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:05,920
The job of the storyteller in this

3122
02:14:03,520 --> 02:14:07,520
instant was simply to let Ron and the

3123
02:14:05,920 --> 02:14:10,320
crazy cast of characters that made up

3124
02:14:07,520 --> 02:14:12,400
his family speak. Just make them let

3125
02:14:10,320 --> 02:14:17,360
them be heard. And that's all you needed

3126
02:14:12,400 --> 02:14:18,880
to do. And so the question I had was

3127
02:14:17,360 --> 02:14:20,560
in writing the story, the question was

3128
02:14:18,880 --> 02:14:23,119
not how to tell the story. That was

3129
02:14:20,560 --> 02:14:26,480
obvious. The story there with the story

3130
02:14:23,119 --> 02:14:28,719
that just turn the tape recorder on. The

3131
02:14:26,480 --> 02:14:33,440
question was how to make sure the

3132
02:14:28,719 --> 02:14:35,599
audience appreciated their story, right?

3133
02:14:33,440 --> 02:14:37,679
So that I had to make sure you

3134
02:14:35,599 --> 02:14:40,320
understood what you were getting that

3135
02:14:37,679 --> 02:14:42,880
this was something special. And so to

3136
02:14:40,320 --> 02:14:45,440
the extent that I added ideas and

3137
02:14:42,880 --> 02:14:48,400
context to the story. It was all about

3138
02:14:45,440 --> 02:14:52,159
helping you to understand that when Ron

3139
02:14:48,400 --> 02:14:54,480
does this one thing, that's amazing.

3140
02:14:52,159 --> 02:14:56,000
Just so we're clear, because here was a

3141
02:14:54,480 --> 02:14:58,960
he was someone who basically does

3142
02:14:56,000 --> 02:15:02,639
something that we laugh about, we make

3143
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:06,159
fun of. He's the guy literally at 12:30

3144
02:15:02,639 --> 02:15:08,639
on channel 128,

3145
02:15:06,159 --> 02:15:10,480
he comes on in an infomercial and tries

3146
02:15:08,639 --> 02:15:15,119
to sell you a rotisserie oven or a knife

3147
02:15:10,480 --> 02:15:17,440
that can cut slice carrots in no time.

3148
02:15:15,119 --> 02:15:19,760
Right? Your impulse when you see that is

3149
02:15:17,440 --> 02:15:23,040
this is totally schlocky. he's selling

3150
02:15:19,760 --> 02:15:24,960
it for $9.99 and you write into a PO box

3151
02:15:23,040 --> 02:15:26,320
number, you call an 800 number, what you

3152
02:15:24,960 --> 02:15:28,159
know, it's the kind of thing that we

3153
02:15:26,320 --> 02:15:30,960
roll our eyes at and we think and

3154
02:15:28,159 --> 02:15:33,119
you're, you know, it's one you're half

3155
02:15:30,960 --> 02:15:35,040
awake. I mean, it's not something you

3156
02:15:33,119 --> 02:15:37,599
take seriously. And what I wanted to say

3157
02:15:35,040 --> 02:15:40,079
was, I've met this guy. He's actually

3158
02:15:37,599 --> 02:15:42,960
amazing. What he does is really

3159
02:15:40,079 --> 02:15:46,400
interesting and really hard,

3160
02:15:42,960 --> 02:15:48,480
right? So, I need to convince you that

3161
02:15:46,400 --> 02:15:51,199
it's interesting and more important that

3162
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:52,800
it's hard because your impulse when

3163
02:15:51,199 --> 02:15:55,679
you're half awake at 2:30 in the morning

3164
02:15:52,800 --> 02:15:58,719
is to think it's easy. He's just another

3165
02:15:55,679 --> 02:16:01,040
he's a dude off the street who's like

3166
02:15:58,719 --> 02:16:05,040
chopping peppers. I mean, what's the

3167
02:16:01,040 --> 02:16:07,360
deal with that? Like, but you spend

3168
02:16:05,040 --> 02:16:10,159
an hour with Ron Appil and you realize

3169
02:16:07,360 --> 02:16:13,280
actually, whoa, that's super hard,

3170
02:16:10,159 --> 02:16:15,360
right? I could not do what he does. And

3171
02:16:13,280 --> 02:16:17,040
let me ex so let me explain to you why

3172
02:16:15,360 --> 02:16:20,480
this guy is exceptional, right? So that

3173
02:16:17,040 --> 02:16:23,440
when I when I expose you to him and all

3174
02:16:20,480 --> 02:16:26,480
of his hilarious, charismatic glory, you

3175
02:16:23,440 --> 02:16:28,079
get what you you you understand what

3176
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:30,639
you're getting.

3177
02:16:28,079 --> 02:16:35,200
So it's that's about like so all the

3178
02:16:30,639 --> 02:16:37,040
storytelling was doing was was kind of

3179
02:16:35,200 --> 02:16:39,519
um

3180
02:16:37,040 --> 02:16:41,359
setting the stage

3181
02:16:39,519 --> 02:16:45,679
uh for

3182
02:16:41,359 --> 02:16:48,719
uh so that when I gave you Ron you you

3183
02:16:45,679 --> 02:16:52,679
were properly in awe like that's what

3184
02:16:48,719 --> 02:16:52,679
you wanted you wanted all

3185
02:16:56,479 --> 02:17:03,519
I don't write profiles rarely ever write

3186
02:16:59,760 --> 02:17:06,240
profiles of people who I do not like or

3187
02:17:03,519 --> 02:17:09,599
I'm not trying to find a way to like so

3188
02:17:06,240 --> 02:17:11,679
I don't do hatchet jobs not excl I mean

3189
02:17:09,599 --> 02:17:15,120
I have once or twice but not I don't do

3190
02:17:11,679 --> 02:17:17,439
it as a rule and my test is I would like

3191
02:17:15,120 --> 02:17:21,040
the subject of the profile to read it

3192
02:17:17,439 --> 02:17:23,679
and be glad that they talked to me now

3193
02:17:21,040 --> 02:17:25,760
not necessarily agree with everything I

3194
02:17:23,679 --> 02:17:29,040
say but be glad that they took the time

3195
02:17:25,760 --> 02:17:30,960
out to explain themselves to me. So to

3196
02:17:29,040 --> 02:17:33,359
to feel like they were treated fairly.

3197
02:17:30,960 --> 02:17:35,840
So Ron after that profile ran in the New

3198
02:17:33,359 --> 02:17:37,679
Yorker of Ron Papiel, he would in his

3199
02:17:35,840 --> 02:17:40,559
late night infomercials, he would hold

3200
02:17:37,679 --> 02:17:43,120
up a copy of it and he would say there

3201
02:17:40,559 --> 02:17:44,639
was a there was a story on me in the New

3202
02:17:43,120 --> 02:17:46,000
Yorker magazine and he would always go

3203
02:17:44,639 --> 02:17:48,559
he'd look at the camera and he go very

3204
02:17:46,000 --> 02:17:51,920
accurate very accurate which I always

3205
02:17:48,559 --> 02:17:53,599
loved but not insightful not I mean it

3206
02:17:51,920 --> 02:17:56,399
was sort of it's sort of like it was it

3207
02:17:53,599 --> 02:17:58,960
was actually almost the best

3208
02:17:56,399 --> 02:18:01,519
the the it was the highest compliment he

3209
02:17:58,960 --> 02:18:04,800
could pay that I had you know, I had

3210
02:18:01,519 --> 02:18:08,319
rendered him um I had rendered him as he

3211
02:18:04,800 --> 02:18:10,000
saw himself, right? And that's a kind of

3212
02:18:08,319 --> 02:18:13,760
I think that's a lovely thing to aspire

3213
02:18:10,000 --> 02:18:15,840
to. Uh is to represent someone Ron can't

3214
02:18:13,760 --> 02:18:19,840
explain himself to the world. He's not a

3215
02:18:15,840 --> 02:18:22,719
writer. Um he's a salesman and an

3216
02:18:19,840 --> 02:18:25,120
inventor, but I can do that. And so I

3217
02:18:22,719 --> 02:18:28,000
stepped in and performed that function

3218
02:18:25,120 --> 02:18:30,800
for him. And he was glad I did. And that

3219
02:18:28,000 --> 02:18:33,840
no that means I can't I shouldn't be the

3220
02:18:30,800 --> 02:18:36,319
one who profiles war criminals or bad

3221
02:18:33,840 --> 02:18:38,319
people or you know that's not for me.

3222
02:18:36,319 --> 02:18:39,599
It's not I don't really want to do that.

3223
02:18:38,319 --> 02:18:41,679
I don't want to spend time with someone

3224
02:18:39,599 --> 02:18:43,359
I don't like and I'm not comfortable

3225
02:18:41,679 --> 02:18:46,080
with

3226
02:18:43,359 --> 02:18:48,160
the gotcha moment where I you know

3227
02:18:46,080 --> 02:18:51,679
reveal someone as being hopelessly evil

3228
02:18:48,160 --> 02:18:54,319
or venal. Um others Janet Malcolm can do

3229
02:18:51,679 --> 02:18:57,679
that. I can't. I know what I want to do

3230
02:18:54,319 --> 02:19:01,040
and what I want to do is um like I said

3231
02:18:57,679 --> 02:19:04,280
represent someone else uh for them to

3232
02:19:01,040 --> 02:19:04,280
the world.

3233
02:19:14,800 --> 02:19:21,519
There are these software programs that

3234
02:19:18,240 --> 02:19:23,040
um you run pros through them. So you

3235
02:19:21,519 --> 02:19:25,040
download

3236
02:19:23,040 --> 02:19:26,639
a couple thousand words of someone's

3237
02:19:25,040 --> 02:19:29,040
pros and you run it through the program

3238
02:19:26,639 --> 02:19:32,080
and the program will tell you what grade

3239
02:19:29,040 --> 02:19:34,240
level the person is writing at and based

3240
02:19:32,080 --> 02:19:36,080
on how long their their choice of words

3241
02:19:34,240 --> 02:19:37,679
and how long their sentences are. And I

3242
02:19:36,080 --> 02:19:39,200
was enormously pleased to learn I

3243
02:19:37,679 --> 02:19:40,880
actually have forgotten the exact grade

3244
02:19:39,200 --> 02:19:43,519
but it's something like I'm writing at

3245
02:19:40,880 --> 02:19:46,080
the eighth grade level um or maybe the

3246
02:19:43,519 --> 02:19:48,960
ninth um and my sentences are super

3247
02:19:46,080 --> 02:19:51,280
short on compared to my peers. So the

3248
02:19:48,960 --> 02:19:53,600
person who did it for me with analysis

3249
02:19:51,280 --> 02:19:56,640
was another writer who writes about

3250
02:19:53,600 --> 02:19:59,520
similar things and and he was he

3251
02:19:56,640 --> 02:20:02,000
observed that he was writing at a level

3252
02:19:59,520 --> 02:20:04,720
three grade grades higher and his

3253
02:20:02,000 --> 02:20:06,399
sentences were way longer and we didn't

3254
02:20:04,720 --> 02:20:09,040
know what to make of this but I was

3255
02:20:06,399 --> 02:20:10,960
secretly pleased because

3256
02:20:09,040 --> 02:20:14,160
my goal is to write at an eighth grade

3257
02:20:10,960 --> 02:20:16,240
level but with ideas that are

3258
02:20:14,160 --> 02:20:18,160
super sophisticated. In other words, it

3259
02:20:16,240 --> 02:20:21,439
doesn't mean that I'm what I'm writing

3260
02:20:18,160 --> 02:20:24,000
is dumb. It means that the way I'm

3261
02:20:21,439 --> 02:20:26,240
writing a way I'm writing is super

3262
02:20:24,000 --> 02:20:27,760
simple and straightforward. An an eighth

3263
02:20:26,240 --> 02:20:29,760
grader can easily read one of my books.

3264
02:20:27,760 --> 02:20:31,760
They may not understand every idea, but

3265
02:20:29,760 --> 02:20:33,280
the writing is not going to defeat them.

3266
02:20:31,760 --> 02:20:34,960
Writing should be simple enough that it

3267
02:20:33,280 --> 02:20:37,280
does not defeat the reader. The reader

3268
02:20:34,960 --> 02:20:39,200
should never say, "Wait a minute, where

3269
02:20:37,280 --> 02:20:41,840
did this sentence start? I've lost

3270
02:20:39,200 --> 02:20:45,840
track." And once a reader does that,

3271
02:20:41,840 --> 02:20:49,359
it's like it's not good. Um, so I try

3272
02:20:45,840 --> 02:20:52,080
and discipline myself and when you have

3273
02:20:49,359 --> 02:20:55,439
lots of short sentences, when you do

3274
02:20:52,080 --> 02:20:58,800
want to do a long one, it pops and it's

3275
02:20:55,439 --> 02:21:01,359
like super fun. So in that passage

3276
02:20:58,800 --> 02:21:03,120
that I was reading, so I have all of

3277
02:21:01,359 --> 02:21:04,479
these short sentences. Spitzenegel is

3278
02:21:03,120 --> 02:21:06,960
blonde and from the Midwest and does

3279
02:21:04,479 --> 02:21:09,520
yoga, you know, in a bar to would pick a

3280
02:21:06,960 --> 02:21:12,319
fight. Spitzn period. Spitzenegel will

3281
02:21:09,520 --> 02:21:14,720
break it up. Period. Then I have that

3282
02:21:12,319 --> 02:21:16,800
sentence. Palip is very lazy to level

3283
02:21:14,720 --> 02:21:18,399
remark to no one in particular several

3284
02:21:16,800 --> 02:21:19,600
times over the course of the day.

3285
02:21:18,399 --> 02:21:21,439
Although this is said with such

3286
02:21:19,600 --> 02:21:24,319
affection that it suggests that laziness

3287
02:21:21,439 --> 02:21:26,240
in the Tbian nomenclature is a synonym

3288
02:21:24,319 --> 02:21:28,640
for genius.

3289
02:21:26,240 --> 02:21:30,560
That's a super long sentence with all

3290
02:21:28,640 --> 02:21:32,479
kinds of moving parts but it's like the

3291
02:21:30,560 --> 02:21:36,000
cherry on top. It's your reward. It's

3292
02:21:32,479 --> 02:21:38,240
what I can do because I have been

3293
02:21:36,000 --> 02:21:39,760
rattatattat short sentence short

3294
02:21:38,240 --> 02:21:43,520
sentence short sentence and you're in

3295
02:21:39,760 --> 02:21:48,160
the rhythm and then the payoff is this

3296
02:21:43,520 --> 02:21:51,040
one long windy super fun with a little

3297
02:21:48,160 --> 02:21:53,680
punch line at the end right that you so

3298
02:21:51,040 --> 02:21:55,920
I think it's uh it's not that you should

3299
02:21:53,680 --> 02:21:59,439
be scared of long sentences it just use

3300
02:21:55,920 --> 02:22:00,880
them sparingly you your reader has a

3301
02:21:59,439 --> 02:22:04,800
limited appetite for them but they'll

3302
02:22:00,880 --> 02:22:07,960
enjoy them if um if they've been um set

3303
02:22:04,800 --> 02:22:07,960
up appropriately.

3304
02:22:12,240 --> 02:22:18,560
I begin with a very very long sentence

3305
02:22:16,080 --> 02:22:19,920
uh for a reason and I'll read you the

3306
02:22:18,560 --> 02:22:22,080
sentence and then I'll explain to you

3307
02:22:19,920 --> 02:22:24,080
the reason.

3308
02:22:22,080 --> 02:22:26,560
The extraordinary story of the Ronco

3309
02:22:24,080 --> 02:22:28,479
Showtime Rotisserie and Barbecue begins

3310
02:22:26,560 --> 02:22:30,880
with Nathan Morris, the son of the

3311
02:22:28,479 --> 02:22:32,319
shoemaker and caner kidders Morris who

3312
02:22:30,880 --> 02:22:34,800
came over from the old country in the

3313
02:22:32,319 --> 02:22:36,720
1880s and settled in Asbury Park, New

3314
02:22:34,800 --> 02:22:40,160
Jersey.

3315
02:22:36,720 --> 02:22:43,200
So that and then the next sentence is I

3316
02:22:40,160 --> 02:22:46,000
describe what Nathan Morris did and then

3317
02:22:43,200 --> 02:22:47,520
I go in and I talk about his sons and I

3318
02:22:46,000 --> 02:22:51,280
talk about how they were all in the

3319
02:22:47,520 --> 02:22:53,520
business of selling kitchen gadgets and

3320
02:22:51,280 --> 02:22:57,439
all of the sentences almost all the

3321
02:22:53,520 --> 02:22:59,359
sentences in the beginning are long

3322
02:22:57,439 --> 02:23:02,399
uh which is a deviation from my normal

3323
02:22:59,359 --> 02:23:06,240
style and I what I'm trying to create

3324
02:23:02,399 --> 02:23:08,479
there is I'm beginning a very very long

3325
02:23:06,240 --> 02:23:13,040
story which is about

3326
02:23:08,479 --> 02:23:17,040
a man who is the heir to a long legacy

3327
02:23:13,040 --> 02:23:19,439
uh who is um

3328
02:23:17,040 --> 02:23:20,960
who is the kind of embodiment of a

3329
02:23:19,439 --> 02:23:24,319
tradition that goes back many

3330
02:23:20,960 --> 02:23:26,960
generations and this is supposed to

3331
02:23:24,319 --> 02:23:29,920
invoke

3332
02:23:26,960 --> 02:23:34,080
biblical language because

3333
02:23:29,920 --> 02:23:36,640
um I one is it's kind of funny

3334
02:23:34,080 --> 02:23:39,680
to use an Old Testament feeling to

3335
02:23:36,640 --> 02:23:42,479
describe a family of of kitchen gadget

3336
02:23:39,680 --> 02:23:46,319
inventors and salesmen, but also because

3337
02:23:42,479 --> 02:23:49,600
um I want you to take him seriously and

3338
02:23:46,319 --> 02:23:51,680
his lineage seriously. He's someone who

3339
02:23:49,600 --> 02:23:55,280
Ron Papiel who appeared on late night TV

3340
02:23:51,680 --> 02:23:57,120
and infomercials and I want to dignify

3341
02:23:55,280 --> 02:23:59,439
the whole piece is about dignifying what

3342
02:23:57,120 --> 02:24:02,080
he does and what is more dignified than

3343
02:23:59,439 --> 02:24:04,080
the Old Testament, right? It has that

3344
02:24:02,080 --> 02:24:06,000
kind of grandeur and that's what I'm

3345
02:24:04,080 --> 02:24:09,760
trying to summon with the long

3346
02:24:06,000 --> 02:24:12,640
sentences. So the senses are that way

3347
02:24:09,760 --> 02:24:16,160
because of the way they feel or the way

3348
02:24:12,640 --> 02:24:19,520
they feel to read and hear. Um not

3349
02:24:16,160 --> 02:24:24,720
because they need to be for purposes of

3350
02:24:19,520 --> 02:24:26,800
of um of uh of of imparting information.

3351
02:24:24,720 --> 02:24:30,200
Um it's there's something larger that

3352
02:24:26,800 --> 02:24:30,200
I'm trying to accomplish.

3353
02:24:33,920 --> 02:24:39,520
The important thing to remember about

3354
02:24:35,040 --> 02:24:41,840
punctuation is that punctuation is um

3355
02:24:39,520 --> 02:24:44,000
is uh how you one of the ways in which

3356
02:24:41,840 --> 02:24:46,479
you establish rhythm.

3357
02:24:44,000 --> 02:24:49,520
So you I always think it's super

3358
02:24:46,479 --> 02:24:52,319
important to read things aloud. When in

3359
02:24:49,520 --> 02:24:53,439
my very first job in journalism at a

3360
02:24:52,319 --> 02:24:56,000
little magazine called the American

3361
02:24:53,439 --> 02:25:00,319
Spectator, when all of the articles were

3362
02:24:56,000 --> 02:25:02,560
done and we were going through them for

3363
02:25:00,319 --> 02:25:05,840
the last time, I would sit in my boss's

3364
02:25:02,560 --> 02:25:09,680
office. My boss's name was Vlad Sloth.

3365
02:25:05,840 --> 02:25:13,840
And Vlad and I would read every word in

3366
02:25:09,680 --> 02:25:15,760
the magazine to each other. Um, and we

3367
02:25:13,840 --> 02:25:19,920
were looking for typos and kinds of

3368
02:25:15,760 --> 02:25:21,600
things, but those and we did this, you

3369
02:25:19,920 --> 02:25:24,319
know, it takes a long time to read an

3370
02:25:21,600 --> 02:25:27,280
entire magazine and we but as we would

3371
02:25:24,319 --> 02:25:29,040
do this, I got uh it first of all

3372
02:25:27,280 --> 02:25:32,640
reminded me of when my father would read

3373
02:25:29,040 --> 02:25:35,280
to us as kids and it also reminded me

3374
02:25:32,640 --> 02:25:38,000
that you don't really understand writing

3375
02:25:35,280 --> 02:25:39,200
until you hear it or there's a way in

3376
02:25:38,000 --> 02:25:41,120
which you understand writing when you

3377
02:25:39,200 --> 02:25:42,880
hear it that you that gives you insight

3378
02:25:41,120 --> 02:25:44,160
you don't have when you just read it.

3379
02:25:42,880 --> 02:25:46,960
Particularly what you get is the

3380
02:25:44,160 --> 02:25:49,760
musicality of writing, the rhythms and

3381
02:25:46,960 --> 02:25:52,080
the and what punctuation does is it

3382
02:25:49,760 --> 02:25:53,680
establishes those rhythms. You're

3383
02:25:52,080 --> 02:25:55,760
instructing your reader when do you want

3384
02:25:53,680 --> 02:25:58,800
them to pause? When do you want them to

3385
02:25:55,760 --> 02:26:01,280
savor something? If you say something

3386
02:25:58,800 --> 02:26:04,319
really pathy and great that you think is

3387
02:26:01,280 --> 02:26:07,280
worthy of then don't bury it in a big

3388
02:26:04,319 --> 02:26:09,359
sentence. Um, if you want to tell a

3389
02:26:07,280 --> 02:26:12,720
joke, tell the joke. Like in that

3390
02:26:09,359 --> 02:26:15,280
sentence that I read about polip, the

3391
02:26:12,720 --> 02:26:17,760
joke is the the punchline is the last

3392
02:26:15,280 --> 02:26:19,840
bit. You can't say the that bit anywhere

3393
02:26:17,760 --> 02:26:22,319
else. If you want to have a punchline,

3394
02:26:19,840 --> 02:26:26,160
make sure it ends the

3395
02:26:22,319 --> 02:26:29,520
sentence. I'm also wary of things like

3396
02:26:26,160 --> 02:26:31,600
semicolons because a semicolon, it

3397
02:26:29,520 --> 02:26:33,680
strikes me, is neither here nor there.

3398
02:26:31,600 --> 02:26:36,160
So, what what are you telling the reader

3399
02:26:33,680 --> 02:26:38,800
with a semicolon? I want you to stop,

3400
02:26:36,160 --> 02:26:40,960
but not really. I'm not sure where we're

3401
02:26:38,800 --> 02:26:42,640
going. I mean, it seems it's so kind of

3402
02:26:40,960 --> 02:26:43,760
it's such a gray area. I mean, if you

3403
02:26:42,640 --> 02:26:45,760
want the sentence to be over, then you

3404
02:26:43,760 --> 02:26:47,439
use a period. If you don't want the

3405
02:26:45,760 --> 02:26:49,280
sentence to be over, then you use a

3406
02:26:47,439 --> 02:26:51,359
comma. I don't know what this middle

3407
02:26:49,280 --> 02:26:54,359
period is. It's very it's distressing to

3408
02:26:51,359 --> 02:26:54,359
me.

3409
02:26:58,399 --> 02:27:02,479
Those are things that your audience

3410
02:26:59,920 --> 02:27:04,319
tells you when you do public speaking.

3411
02:27:02,479 --> 02:27:07,359
So if you can tell when you're losing

3412
02:27:04,319 --> 02:27:09,359
them and

3413
02:27:07,359 --> 02:27:10,960
because you just you can feel it the

3414
02:27:09,359 --> 02:27:13,040
room the attention in the room goes

3415
02:27:10,960 --> 02:27:15,120
somewhere else and you know when you see

3416
02:27:13,040 --> 02:27:17,439
that you need to speed up. You can also

3417
02:27:15,120 --> 02:27:19,600
tell when you're going too fast. They're

3418
02:27:17,439 --> 02:27:21,520
not they want to follow but they can't.

3419
02:27:19,600 --> 02:27:24,080
They're not getting it. And then you

3420
02:27:21,520 --> 02:27:26,399
slow down and you the more you speak the

3421
02:27:24,080 --> 02:27:30,560
more adept you are at picking up on

3422
02:27:26,399 --> 02:27:32,160
those kind of group cues. Um, and

3423
02:27:30,560 --> 02:27:34,960
there's always somebody I've always when

3424
02:27:32,160 --> 02:27:38,319
I give a talk, there's always someone in

3425
02:27:34,960 --> 02:27:40,319
the front row who

3426
02:27:38,319 --> 02:27:43,520
uh will assist you. They don't mean to,

3427
02:27:40,319 --> 02:27:46,560
but the kind of people who sit in front

3428
02:27:43,520 --> 02:27:49,520
rows are the kinds of people who want to

3429
02:27:46,560 --> 02:27:51,359
be engaged with you. And so, I mean, the

3430
02:27:49,520 --> 02:27:52,960
front several rows and they're the

3431
02:27:51,359 --> 02:27:55,439
people who when they get it, they'll nod

3432
02:27:52,960 --> 02:27:58,080
vigorously. And when they don't get it,

3433
02:27:55,439 --> 02:27:59,680
they'll just sit and look at you with a

3434
02:27:58,080 --> 02:28:01,280
puzzled look on your face. So if when

3435
02:27:59,680 --> 02:28:03,040
you're talking and I you just look at

3436
02:28:01,280 --> 02:28:04,479
that, you find that person early on and

3437
02:28:03,040 --> 02:28:05,760
you just kind of glance over every now

3438
02:28:04,479 --> 02:28:08,000
and again to see what's going on with

3439
02:28:05,760 --> 02:28:10,880
them. If they're nodding, fine. Just

3440
02:28:08,000 --> 02:28:12,240
keep rolling. If I see them looking at

3441
02:28:10,880 --> 02:28:13,359
me with this weird look in their eyes,

3442
02:28:12,240 --> 02:28:14,960
I'm like, "All right, I got to do

3443
02:28:13,359 --> 02:28:17,439
something here." Like something is this

3444
02:28:14,960 --> 02:28:19,439
is going off the rails. Um because my

3445
02:28:17,439 --> 02:28:22,000
buddy over there is just not he's not

3446
02:28:19,439 --> 02:28:23,840
down with where I'm going. So you you

3447
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:27,760
get more

3448
02:28:23,840 --> 02:28:29,920
your attentiveness to you get you you if

3449
02:28:27,760 --> 02:28:32,479
you take it seriously, you learn to be

3450
02:28:29,920 --> 02:28:35,120
attentive to your audience and that

3451
02:28:32,479 --> 02:28:37,520
carries over to your writing because now

3452
02:28:35,120 --> 02:28:39,520
the audience as you're writing and

3453
02:28:37,520 --> 02:28:43,280
you're thinking about pacing, you think,

3454
02:28:39,520 --> 02:28:46,000
"Oh, so is that was that woman who

3455
02:28:43,280 --> 02:28:48,240
nodded along with me? Is she nodding now

3456
02:28:46,000 --> 02:28:50,160
or is has she tuned out?" Right? You

3457
02:28:48,240 --> 02:28:53,760
kind of internalize

3458
02:28:50,160 --> 02:28:55,760
your experience in the room and take it

3459
02:28:53,760 --> 02:28:57,359
with you when you go back to your

3460
02:28:55,760 --> 02:29:00,359
computer and you're sitting alone

3461
02:28:57,359 --> 02:29:00,359
writing.

3462
02:29:04,720 --> 02:29:11,439
Jargon is the are in the best sense of

3463
02:29:08,080 --> 02:29:15,359
that word are the words and phrases that

3464
02:29:11,439 --> 02:29:18,160
people inside a world use to describe

3465
02:29:15,359 --> 02:29:21,520
complicated notions. they're it's a it's

3466
02:29:18,160 --> 02:29:23,760
a form of shorthand. It allows them to

3467
02:29:21,520 --> 02:29:26,800
um communicate more effectively. And so

3468
02:29:23,760 --> 02:29:31,760
it's a very useful exercise to find

3469
02:29:26,800 --> 02:29:33,920
bits of jargon and explain them

3470
02:29:31,760 --> 02:29:37,760
to your audience to give your audience a

3471
02:29:33,920 --> 02:29:40,960
window of how someone inside that expert

3472
02:29:37,760 --> 02:29:43,200
world thinks. So

3473
02:29:40,960 --> 02:29:45,600
the if you're a writer and you're trying

3474
02:29:43,200 --> 02:29:47,840
to represent a world, a different world

3475
02:29:45,600 --> 02:29:50,399
to your audience,

3476
02:29:47,840 --> 02:29:53,040
the kind of jargon that is used to

3477
02:29:50,399 --> 02:29:55,120
render complicated arguments more simply

3478
02:29:53,040 --> 02:29:57,359
is incredibly useful to you, you should

3479
02:29:55,120 --> 02:30:00,240
use that jargon. The kind of jargon that

3480
02:29:57,359 --> 02:30:03,840
is just simply people's attempt to keep

3481
02:30:00,240 --> 02:30:05,520
the world out and to be pretentious and

3482
02:30:03,840 --> 02:30:06,800
to make them sound like they're more

3483
02:30:05,520 --> 02:30:08,319
expert than they are is the kind you

3484
02:30:06,800 --> 02:30:10,319
should avoid. So let me give you an

3485
02:30:08,319 --> 02:30:14,080
example. I was once writing an article

3486
02:30:10,319 --> 02:30:16,240
about a guy a company that was testing a

3487
02:30:14,080 --> 02:30:19,439
new drug for

3488
02:30:16,240 --> 02:30:22,640
uh cancer for melanoma

3489
02:30:19,439 --> 02:30:26,000
and in the world of drug testing there

3490
02:30:22,640 --> 02:30:29,040
is something called a Kaplan Meyer curve

3491
02:30:26,000 --> 02:30:32,479
and Kaplan Meyer curve is very simple

3492
02:30:29,040 --> 02:30:35,040
thing it's two lines on a graph the

3493
02:30:32,479 --> 02:30:37,840
first line is

3494
02:30:35,040 --> 02:30:40,000
people with this disease so if we start

3495
02:30:37,840 --> 02:30:42,000
with a 100 people who have this disease

3496
02:30:40,000 --> 02:30:45,040
and we simply

3497
02:30:42,000 --> 02:30:47,600
uh chart their survival rate over time.

3498
02:30:45,040 --> 02:30:52,800
So on day one there's 100. They're all

3499
02:30:47,600 --> 02:30:56,720
alive. On week one, on week two, 98 are

3500
02:30:52,800 --> 02:31:00,399
still alive. Week three, 90 are still

3501
02:30:56,720 --> 02:31:03,840
alive. Week 50, two are still alive.

3502
02:31:00,399 --> 02:31:06,880
Right? That's a graph like that. And

3503
02:31:03,840 --> 02:31:08,640
then on top of that graph, you graph the

3504
02:31:06,880 --> 02:31:11,439
survival rates of people who are taking

3505
02:31:08,640 --> 02:31:12,880
your drug. And if the two lines are

3506
02:31:11,439 --> 02:31:16,720
exactly the same, your drug doesn't

3507
02:31:12,880 --> 02:31:20,319
work. It's not changing the survival

3508
02:31:16,720 --> 02:31:23,359
rate of people. If the two dry lines

3509
02:31:20,319 --> 02:31:25,280
converge, something's happening. If your

3510
02:31:23,359 --> 02:31:27,840
line, if you're testing a new drug and

3511
02:31:25,280 --> 02:31:30,160
your line dips below the original line,

3512
02:31:27,840 --> 02:31:32,080
it means your drug is killing people. If

3513
02:31:30,160 --> 02:31:34,479
it's above

3514
02:31:32,080 --> 02:31:37,280
your line, it means your drug is saving

3515
02:31:34,479 --> 02:31:38,960
is extending people's lives. Right? So

3516
02:31:37,280 --> 02:31:41,520
in the world of drug testing, they talk

3517
02:31:38,960 --> 02:31:45,200
about Kaplan Meyer curves and was your

3518
02:31:41,520 --> 02:31:47,840
Kaplan Meyer curve positive, negative or

3519
02:31:45,200 --> 02:31:50,319
neutral.

3520
02:31:47,840 --> 02:31:53,840
When you submit a drug application to

3521
02:31:50,319 --> 02:31:56,479
the FDA, you submit in some cases

3522
02:31:53,840 --> 02:31:58,399
millions of pages of documents, but all

3523
02:31:56,479 --> 02:32:01,760
everyone cares about is the capital meer

3524
02:31:58,399 --> 02:32:04,240
curve, which is one chart with two lines

3525
02:32:01,760 --> 02:32:05,680
on it, right? And when they give their

3526
02:32:04,240 --> 02:32:07,120
big fancy meeting, they'll talk for

3527
02:32:05,680 --> 02:32:09,359
hours and hours and hours and then they

3528
02:32:07,120 --> 02:32:11,359
will put up on the slide on the

3529
02:32:09,359 --> 02:32:12,640
PowerPoint the Kaplan Meyer and that's

3530
02:32:11,359 --> 02:32:14,880
all people. They're just waiting for the

3531
02:32:12,640 --> 02:32:16,319
Kaplan Meyer. Wait, wait, wait. hours,

3532
02:32:14,880 --> 02:32:17,760
hours, hours, and then finally, and

3533
02:32:16,319 --> 02:32:19,040
they'll say, and it's a big suspense

3534
02:32:17,760 --> 02:32:20,640
thing, and they'll build up and build up

3535
02:32:19,040 --> 02:32:22,800
and build up, build up, and then they'll

3536
02:32:20,640 --> 02:32:24,560
say, they'll hit the button, they'll go,

3537
02:32:22,800 --> 02:32:26,160
and this is the Kaplan Meyer, and

3538
02:32:24,560 --> 02:32:30,160
everyone goes, "Oh my god." And it's

3539
02:32:26,160 --> 02:32:33,280
either oh no or uh or oh my god. There's

3540
02:32:30,160 --> 02:32:34,880
a famous story of a drug for breast

3541
02:32:33,280 --> 02:32:36,399
cancer,

3542
02:32:34,880 --> 02:32:38,319
uh, one of the best drugs for breast

3543
02:32:36,399 --> 02:32:39,760
cancer we ever had. And it was a drug

3544
02:32:38,319 --> 02:32:43,120
that people had given up on, and they

3545
02:32:39,760 --> 02:32:45,120
did a big breast cancer trial. And the

3546
02:32:43,120 --> 02:32:46,880
researchers

3547
02:32:45,120 --> 02:32:50,240
presented the data at the big cancer

3548
02:32:46,880 --> 02:32:52,080
meeting and it's you know there's every

3549
02:32:50,240 --> 02:32:53,760
major oncologist in the world is in the

3550
02:32:52,080 --> 02:32:55,920
audience. It's the big meeting

3551
02:32:53,760 --> 02:32:57,120
international meeting and they give

3552
02:32:55,920 --> 02:32:59,520
everyone's been waiting for the results

3553
02:32:57,120 --> 02:33:01,520
of this incredibly important trial. It's

3554
02:32:59,520 --> 02:33:02,800
taken years, millions and millions of

3555
02:33:01,520 --> 02:33:05,760
dollars and they're testing this new

3556
02:33:02,800 --> 02:33:08,479
drug for and they do the guy gets up

3557
02:33:05,760 --> 02:33:10,960
there and he gives the preamble for like

3558
02:33:08,479 --> 02:33:14,000
45 minutes. He describes how many people

3559
02:33:10,960 --> 02:33:16,319
in the trial, where they did the trial,

3560
02:33:14,000 --> 02:33:17,840
how much money it cost, this and this

3561
02:33:16,319 --> 02:33:19,680
and this and this. And the audience is

3562
02:33:17,840 --> 02:33:22,800
like on the edge of their seat. And then

3563
02:33:19,680 --> 02:33:25,760
he hits the button. The Kapla Meyer

3564
02:33:22,800 --> 02:33:28,640
comes up. People see space. They see

3565
02:33:25,760 --> 02:33:31,280
that the drug line is higher than the

3566
02:33:28,640 --> 02:33:33,760
normal Kappa Meyer line. And the

3567
02:33:31,280 --> 02:33:35,439
audience just there's like a standing

3568
02:33:33,760 --> 02:33:36,800
ovation and people are in tears and are

3569
02:33:35,439 --> 02:33:39,680
hugging each other or jumping up and

3570
02:33:36,800 --> 02:33:41,760
down because that means that

3571
02:33:39,680 --> 02:33:42,960
literally hundreds of thousands of women

3572
02:33:41,760 --> 02:33:44,560
are going to live longer than they would

3573
02:33:42,960 --> 02:33:46,720
otherwise. That curve that's what it

3574
02:33:44,560 --> 02:33:48,960
means. Anyway,

3575
02:33:46,720 --> 02:33:50,479
I wrote a story about the drug approval

3576
02:33:48,960 --> 02:33:52,720
process, about this company that was

3577
02:33:50,479 --> 02:33:55,120
coming up with this.

3578
02:33:52,720 --> 02:33:59,840
And one of the first things I do, in

3579
02:33:55,120 --> 02:34:02,399
fact, in the first or second paragraph,

3580
02:33:59,840 --> 02:34:04,880
I tell you what a Kaplan Meyer curve is.

3581
02:34:02,399 --> 02:34:06,880
And I tell you the story I just told you

3582
02:34:04,880 --> 02:34:08,880
about the Kaplan

3583
02:34:06,880 --> 02:34:11,040
Meyer curve that was presented for the

3584
02:34:08,880 --> 02:34:12,960
breast cancer drug. Even though that's

3585
02:34:11,040 --> 02:34:15,280
not what my story is about. My story is

3586
02:34:12,960 --> 02:34:17,280
about melanoma and another company years

3587
02:34:15,280 --> 02:34:20,720
later. It has nothing to do with breast

3588
02:34:17,280 --> 02:34:23,600
cancer. Not but you have to know that

3589
02:34:20,720 --> 02:34:26,560
little bit of jargon. Why? Because it's

3590
02:34:23,600 --> 02:34:29,040
thrilling and it's it's like and you

3591
02:34:26,560 --> 02:34:31,120
feel like you're smart. You are smart.

3592
02:34:29,040 --> 02:34:33,840
You now know the thing you need to know.

3593
02:34:31,120 --> 02:34:36,399
It's the simple beautiful thing you need

3594
02:34:33,840 --> 02:34:38,880
to know if you want to understand

3595
02:34:36,399 --> 02:34:40,640
cancer drugs. Kaplan Meyer. And you hear

3596
02:34:38,880 --> 02:34:42,800
that and you think your first thought is

3597
02:34:40,640 --> 02:34:44,720
who's Kaplan? Who's Meyer? like you I've

3598
02:34:42,800 --> 02:34:48,160
person you know it's not impersonal it's

3599
02:34:44,720 --> 02:34:50,800
not some jumble of legal ease that makes

3600
02:34:48,160 --> 02:34:52,880
no sense it's two people's names two

3601
02:34:50,800 --> 02:34:56,000
people who described a phenomenon that

3602
02:34:52,880 --> 02:34:58,000
allows us to really quickly and

3603
02:34:56,000 --> 02:35:02,319
elegantly understand whether something

3604
02:34:58,000 --> 02:35:06,080
can save lives or not right that is

3605
02:35:02,319 --> 02:35:08,000
jargon at its best it is I can explain

3606
02:35:06,080 --> 02:35:10,080
that to you and that's the little I've

3607
02:35:08,000 --> 02:35:13,280
given you this little tool and now I've

3608
02:35:10,080 --> 02:35:15,040
got you Right now, you want to know, so

3609
02:35:13,280 --> 02:35:16,560
this article goes on for another 8,000

3610
02:35:15,040 --> 02:35:18,640
words. What do you want to know the

3611
02:35:16,560 --> 02:35:20,720
entire time? I'm talking about this new

3612
02:35:18,640 --> 02:35:22,319
drug for melanoma. Melanoma is a

3613
02:35:20,720 --> 02:35:24,479
disease. Basically, we have no drugs for

3614
02:35:22,319 --> 02:35:27,280
melanoma. If you get stage three

3615
02:35:24,479 --> 02:35:29,840
melanoma, you die, right? Here was a

3616
02:35:27,280 --> 02:35:32,160
company that thought they had a way to

3617
02:35:29,840 --> 02:35:34,800
cure melanoma or at least cure some

3618
02:35:32,160 --> 02:35:37,600
portion of it. and I'll walk you through

3619
02:35:34,800 --> 02:35:40,399
everything they went through in the

3620
02:35:37,600 --> 02:35:43,040
discovery and testing of this drug the

3621
02:35:40,399 --> 02:35:45,120
whole time. What are you thinking as a

3622
02:35:43,040 --> 02:35:46,800
reader? I want to know what the cap I

3623
02:35:45,120 --> 02:35:49,040
want to see the Kaplan Meyer. I want

3624
02:35:46,800 --> 02:35:51,760
where's the Kaplan Meyer? And you know,

3625
02:35:49,040 --> 02:35:53,520
you turn the page and you see another

3626
02:35:51,760 --> 02:35:54,960
1500 words. You're like, where's the

3627
02:35:53,520 --> 02:35:56,560
Kaplan Meyer? You keep reading, right?

3628
02:35:54,960 --> 02:35:59,280
You want to know the Kaplan Meyer and I

3629
02:35:56,560 --> 02:36:00,800
tell you the Kaplan Meyer in the last

3630
02:35:59,280 --> 02:36:04,240
paragraph,

3631
02:36:00,800 --> 02:36:06,560
right? That's because I've what have I

3632
02:36:04,240 --> 02:36:09,040
done? I have made you I have turned you

3633
02:36:06,560 --> 02:36:11,520
into one of those people in the audience

3634
02:36:09,040 --> 02:36:13,200
at the cancer meeting waiting for the

3635
02:36:11,520 --> 02:36:15,680
Kaplan Meyer for the breast cancer drug

3636
02:36:13,200 --> 02:36:17,760
on the edge of your seat for 45 minutes

3637
02:36:15,680 --> 02:36:21,120
as I go through the preamble. The whole

3638
02:36:17,760 --> 02:36:24,399
article was preamble, right? That's what

3639
02:36:21,120 --> 02:36:27,600
you can do with that's the that is the

3640
02:36:24,399 --> 02:36:31,040
beauty of insider language is I can pull

3641
02:36:27,600 --> 02:36:34,640
you into the world. Now the thing I

3642
02:36:31,040 --> 02:36:38,080
didn't do is give you 15

3643
02:36:34,640 --> 02:36:41,760
other jargon terms from drug discovery.

3644
02:36:38,080 --> 02:36:45,600
There are many many others. I can I can

3645
02:36:41,760 --> 02:36:47,920
bury you in jargon from that world. No,

3646
02:36:45,600 --> 02:36:51,280
that would defeat my purpose. I'm not

3647
02:36:47,920 --> 02:36:52,319
turning you into the exact replica of I

3648
02:36:51,280 --> 02:36:54,800
don't want to turn you into an

3649
02:36:52,319 --> 02:36:57,359
oncologist. I can't. That's not the

3650
02:36:54,800 --> 02:36:59,680
point. I want to recreate the feeling

3651
02:36:57,359 --> 02:37:01,760
though that the oncologist has when

3652
02:36:59,680 --> 02:37:04,399
they're sitting in the audience and

3653
02:37:01,760 --> 02:37:08,399
Kaplan the words Kaplan Meyer and the

3654
02:37:04,399 --> 02:37:10,560
mental image of the the two curves that

3655
02:37:08,399 --> 02:37:13,600
does it gets that gets that feeling in

3656
02:37:10,560 --> 02:37:15,120
the pit of your stomach. So that story

3657
02:37:13,600 --> 02:37:19,680
you know goes back to all a lot of

3658
02:37:15,120 --> 02:37:22,080
things we've been talking about. It's

3659
02:37:19,680 --> 02:37:24,080
one selective use of the language of the

3660
02:37:22,080 --> 02:37:25,760
world you're describing,

3661
02:37:24,080 --> 02:37:28,160
particularly that the kind of language

3662
02:37:25,760 --> 02:37:32,399
that elegantly communicates something

3663
02:37:28,160 --> 02:37:33,920
complicated and central. Two, it's about

3664
02:37:32,399 --> 02:37:38,080
suspense.

3665
02:37:33,920 --> 02:37:40,000
The the Kaplan Meyer is always used in a

3666
02:37:38,080 --> 02:37:42,880
suspenseful

3667
02:37:40,000 --> 02:37:45,359
manner. It is the punchline. It is the

3668
02:37:42,880 --> 02:37:48,000
last sentence of the presentation,

3669
02:37:45,359 --> 02:37:50,640
right? It's what you so it is a it is a

3670
02:37:48,000 --> 02:37:53,680
concept that has that carries with it

3671
02:37:50,640 --> 02:37:57,040
inherent drama and when you you and so

3672
02:37:53,680 --> 02:38:00,880
it it creates a story for you and lastly

3673
02:37:57,040 --> 02:38:04,080
it's a tool. It's a way of thinking in a

3674
02:38:00,880 --> 02:38:07,439
kind of very clear way about what the

3675
02:38:04,080 --> 02:38:10,640
challenge is for someone who's making a

3676
02:38:07,439 --> 02:38:11,840
drug. Right? That's what I'm what I'm

3677
02:38:10,640 --> 02:38:14,640
trying to do when I was writing that

3678
02:38:11,840 --> 02:38:18,080
article was I wanted you to understand

3679
02:38:14,640 --> 02:38:19,840
what people in the world of

3680
02:38:18,080 --> 02:38:21,680
people who try and come up with drugs

3681
02:38:19,840 --> 02:38:23,760
what what

3682
02:38:21,680 --> 02:38:26,319
uh what does it feel like and what do

3683
02:38:23,760 --> 02:38:29,600
they what are the obstacles they face

3684
02:38:26,319 --> 02:38:31,760
right and their the obstacle very very

3685
02:38:29,600 --> 02:38:34,960
simply is to get the two lines on the

3686
02:38:31,760 --> 02:38:37,600
capital meer curve to diverge if only

3687
02:38:34,960 --> 02:38:39,280
for a short period of time right if they

3688
02:38:37,600 --> 02:38:41,760
can do that they win. That's what

3689
02:38:39,280 --> 02:38:45,920
they're just a little space. If you can

3690
02:38:41,760 --> 02:38:48,240
see daylight between the two lines, then

3691
02:38:45,920 --> 02:38:49,920
they have they have succeeded, right?

3692
02:38:48,240 --> 02:38:52,720
Years and years of years of work will

3693
02:38:49,920 --> 02:38:54,960
come through. So all of that

3694
02:38:52,720 --> 02:38:57,600
in that little simple idea there's

3695
02:38:54,960 --> 02:39:00,080
there's a a way to tell a story just

3696
02:38:57,600 --> 02:39:03,080
contained almost in that phrase Kepler

3697
02:39:00,080 --> 02:39:03,080
Meer.

3698
02:39:13,200 --> 02:39:17,680
You know we live in a society which

3699
02:39:16,160 --> 02:39:20,000
fetishizes

3700
02:39:17,680 --> 02:39:23,040
laughter. The production of laughter is

3701
02:39:20,000 --> 02:39:25,439
something that is uh taken very

3702
02:39:23,040 --> 02:39:27,520
seriously in our world. We pay people

3703
02:39:25,439 --> 02:39:30,720
enormous amounts of money to make us

3704
02:39:27,520 --> 02:39:33,200
laugh. We venerate comedians. I mean

3705
02:39:30,720 --> 02:39:35,680
Jerry Seinfeld is a cultural figure on

3706
02:39:33,200 --> 02:39:37,520
an extraordinary level. I mean he is a

3707
02:39:35,680 --> 02:39:39,280
he's a guy who used to do standup in New

3708
02:39:37,520 --> 02:39:41,120
York

3709
02:39:39,280 --> 02:39:42,960
bars who's now practically a billionaire

3710
02:39:41,120 --> 02:39:44,800
and could can't walk down a street

3711
02:39:42,960 --> 02:39:46,080
anywhere in the Western world. I mean

3712
02:39:44,800 --> 02:39:47,920
maybe even beyond the western world

3713
02:39:46,080 --> 02:39:51,280
without being recognized. That's an

3714
02:39:47,920 --> 02:39:53,359
incredible um social status for a joke

3715
02:39:51,280 --> 02:39:55,840
teller. So, we take that really really

3716
02:39:53,359 --> 02:39:58,880
seriously. It's an odd thing to take

3717
02:39:55,840 --> 02:40:01,439
seriously because um we laugh a lot.

3718
02:39:58,880 --> 02:40:02,960
It's not like laughter is something

3719
02:40:01,439 --> 02:40:05,359
rare.

3720
02:40:02,960 --> 02:40:07,840
You know, if you if you just listen to

3721
02:40:05,359 --> 02:40:10,080
the way people behave in everyday

3722
02:40:07,840 --> 02:40:12,560
context, they're constantly laughing.

3723
02:40:10,080 --> 02:40:13,760
Laughing is ubiquitous. Laughing. I

3724
02:40:12,560 --> 02:40:15,600
mean, I I've never counted how many

3725
02:40:13,760 --> 02:40:18,080
times I laugh in a day, but like all of

3726
02:40:15,600 --> 02:40:21,120
us, all of us are laughing all the time.

3727
02:40:18,080 --> 02:40:22,800
So, when you're when you're producing

3728
02:40:21,120 --> 02:40:26,080
laughter, what you're doing is you're

3729
02:40:22,800 --> 02:40:29,040
producing a very familiar

3730
02:40:26,080 --> 02:40:30,479
emotion. Um,

3731
02:40:29,040 --> 02:40:33,200
sadness on the other hand is quite

3732
02:40:30,479 --> 02:40:35,359
genuine sadness is quite rare. You know,

3733
02:40:33,200 --> 02:40:37,359
we have you think about in the course of

3734
02:40:35,359 --> 02:40:39,840
in a given day, how many moments of

3735
02:40:37,359 --> 02:40:42,640
genuine melancholy do you have? Very

3736
02:40:39,840 --> 02:40:44,560
few. You might not have any. You might

3737
02:40:42,640 --> 02:40:46,399
you might I mean there's a reason where

3738
02:40:44,560 --> 02:40:48,319
you can remember the last why you can

3739
02:40:46,399 --> 02:40:50,080
remember the last time you were very sad

3740
02:40:48,319 --> 02:40:52,160
and you probably can't remember with

3741
02:40:50,080 --> 02:40:54,560
accuracy the last time you laughed

3742
02:40:52,160 --> 02:40:56,880
because laughter is cheap happens all

3743
02:40:54,560 --> 02:41:00,000
the time. Sadness is something that's so

3744
02:40:56,880 --> 02:41:02,800
the the task of

3745
02:41:00,000 --> 02:41:04,479
producing of inducing

3746
02:41:02,800 --> 02:41:07,439
strong

3747
02:41:04,479 --> 02:41:09,920
um uh strong emotions, sadness,

3748
02:41:07,439 --> 02:41:12,880
melancholy in your audience is a very

3749
02:41:09,920 --> 02:41:16,240
very very different task than the task

3750
02:41:12,880 --> 02:41:19,439
of of producing levity um in your

3751
02:41:16,240 --> 02:41:22,080
audience. So I like I think of them as

3752
02:41:19,439 --> 02:41:24,800
being almost at opposite ends of the of

3753
02:41:22,080 --> 02:41:26,800
the continuum from each other. And I've

3754
02:41:24,800 --> 02:41:29,600
always been more

3755
02:41:26,800 --> 02:41:34,080
I'm way more interested in sadness,

3756
02:41:29,600 --> 02:41:37,120
melancholy than I am in laughter as a um

3757
02:41:34,080 --> 02:41:39,600
as an end point of in my audience. I

3758
02:41:37,120 --> 02:41:40,960
think that uh I don't think of it as a

3759
02:41:39,600 --> 02:41:43,439
great accomplishment if I've made

3760
02:41:40,960 --> 02:41:45,600
someone laugh whereas I think of it as a

3761
02:41:43,439 --> 02:41:49,600
extraordinary accomplishment if I have

3762
02:41:45,600 --> 02:41:54,439
managed to provoke deep uh reflective

3763
02:41:49,600 --> 02:41:54,439
emotion um in someone.

3764
02:41:58,319 --> 02:42:04,640
The other thing that's different between

3765
02:42:00,640 --> 02:42:06,720
laughter and sadness is that

3766
02:42:04,640 --> 02:42:08,880
laughter can be induced by

3767
02:42:06,720 --> 02:42:11,840
inauthenticity. In fact, it almost

3768
02:42:08,880 --> 02:42:14,319
always is induced by inau. You laugh at

3769
02:42:11,840 --> 02:42:16,319
when I'm out of character. If I do

3770
02:42:14,319 --> 02:42:18,640
something you're not expected, if I'm if

3771
02:42:16,319 --> 02:42:21,760
I play a role I don't normally play.

3772
02:42:18,640 --> 02:42:23,600
Whereas you can't make someone cry by

3773
02:42:21,760 --> 02:42:26,640
being out of character, you make someone

3774
02:42:23,600 --> 02:42:30,960
cry by being by exposing some aspect of

3775
02:42:26,640 --> 02:42:34,240
your authentic self, right? So it's

3776
02:42:30,960 --> 02:42:37,280
uh it's a totally different kind of

3777
02:42:34,240 --> 02:42:41,439
operation, right? Uh,

3778
02:42:37,280 --> 02:42:44,560
and so to kind of get to to to write

3779
02:42:41,439 --> 02:42:48,640
something that comes from something deep

3780
02:42:44,560 --> 02:42:51,439
within you and that opens up a genuine

3781
02:42:48,640 --> 02:42:54,800
window into who you are or or into who

3782
02:42:51,439 --> 02:42:59,439
someone else is, that's

3783
02:42:54,800 --> 02:43:02,479
uh an amazing powerful and really hard

3784
02:42:59,439 --> 02:43:04,960
really hard thing to do. So if you think

3785
02:43:02,479 --> 02:43:06,880
about that idea of sadness as

3786
02:43:04,960 --> 02:43:10,160
authenticity,

3787
02:43:06,880 --> 02:43:14,000
then rule number one is

3788
02:43:10,160 --> 02:43:17,040
that no element of

3789
02:43:14,000 --> 02:43:21,040
uh your description or discussion of

3790
02:43:17,040 --> 02:43:24,640
this that topic can be inauthentic.

3791
02:43:21,040 --> 02:43:28,399
So you can't try too hard.

3792
02:43:24,640 --> 02:43:30,479
So I can remember in one of my books in

3793
02:43:28,399 --> 02:43:33,359
David and Goliath, I was talking to a

3794
02:43:30,479 --> 02:43:36,319
mother who a woman named Wilma Dirkson

3795
02:43:33,359 --> 02:43:39,439
whose daughter was uh killed by a sexual

3796
02:43:36,319 --> 02:43:42,479
predator and who then

3797
02:43:39,439 --> 02:43:44,560
found it within herself to forgive her

3798
02:43:42,479 --> 02:43:47,520
daughter's murderer, publicly forgive

3799
02:43:44,560 --> 02:43:49,359
him. And

3800
02:43:47,520 --> 02:43:52,560
it's this incredible I was interviewing

3801
02:43:49,359 --> 02:43:54,479
her in her backyard in Winnipeg

3802
02:43:52,560 --> 02:43:55,920
and she's remembering it was 10 years

3803
02:43:54,479 --> 02:43:59,200
since her daughter had been killed and

3804
02:43:55,920 --> 02:44:01,840
she's reliving that moment and talking

3805
02:43:59,200 --> 02:44:05,600
about how she came to this

3806
02:44:01,840 --> 02:44:07,760
um almost unbelievable

3807
02:44:05,600 --> 02:44:09,439
decision that she would stand up and say

3808
02:44:07,760 --> 02:44:13,200
who this was even before the guy had

3809
02:44:09,439 --> 02:44:14,720
been caught. Whoever you are out there,

3810
02:44:13,200 --> 02:44:18,399
I want you to know that I have forgiven

3811
02:44:14,720 --> 02:44:21,359
you. I mean, it's I mean, it's un almost

3812
02:44:18,399 --> 02:44:24,880
unbearably

3813
02:44:21,359 --> 02:44:26,720
um heartbreaking that moment. So, the

3814
02:44:24,880 --> 02:44:29,279
question is, how do you render that on

3815
02:44:26,720 --> 02:44:32,399
the page? And one of the things you have

3816
02:44:29,279 --> 02:44:34,800
to do is to resist the impulse to

3817
02:44:32,399 --> 02:44:37,200
overplay it.

3818
02:44:34,800 --> 02:44:39,439
It's not a soap opera,

3819
02:44:37,200 --> 02:44:42,640
right? You're

3820
02:44:39,439 --> 02:44:45,200
she's doing all the work. You You don't

3821
02:44:42,640 --> 02:44:48,880
have to say and as she told me this, her

3822
02:44:45,200 --> 02:44:51,760
face was etched with sadness. No, it's

3823
02:44:48,880 --> 02:44:54,080
clear. If you do your job properly and

3824
02:44:51,760 --> 02:44:56,399
you just simply

3825
02:44:54,080 --> 02:44:58,960
if you simply describe someone saying

3826
02:44:56,399 --> 02:45:03,200
these almost impossible to believe

3827
02:44:58,960 --> 02:45:06,640
words, the reader has filled in all of

3828
02:45:03,200 --> 02:45:11,439
those has created a picture in their own

3829
02:45:06,640 --> 02:45:15,120
mind. They're doing all the of of your

3830
02:45:11,439 --> 02:45:16,399
work uh uh for you. If you do that, if

3831
02:45:15,120 --> 02:45:18,000
you make the mistake of going too far

3832
02:45:16,399 --> 02:45:21,040
and saying and her face was etched with

3833
02:45:18,000 --> 02:45:24,240
sadness and then the first question the

3834
02:45:21,040 --> 02:45:27,120
reader has is why are you trying so

3835
02:45:24,240 --> 02:45:29,600
hard? Is it because it wasn't you

3836
02:45:27,120 --> 02:45:32,000
weren't moved in the moment? Are you was

3837
02:45:29,600 --> 02:45:36,240
the was that moment in the backyard in

3838
02:45:32,000 --> 02:45:38,240
Winnipeg with Wilmer Durkman so trivial

3839
02:45:36,240 --> 02:45:39,840
or insubstantial for you that when

3840
02:45:38,240 --> 02:45:41,920
you're describing it you have got to

3841
02:45:39,840 --> 02:45:44,800
pile on the adjectives and add all of

3842
02:45:41,920 --> 02:45:46,880
this extraneous stuff you create doubt

3843
02:45:44,800 --> 02:45:49,520
in the mind of the reader and the minute

3844
02:45:46,880 --> 02:45:51,359
you have doubt all is lost right you're

3845
02:45:49,520 --> 02:45:52,880
they're out of the moment they've

3846
02:45:51,359 --> 02:45:55,439
they've taken a step back and they've

3847
02:45:52,880 --> 02:45:57,279
said there's something fishy about this

3848
02:45:55,439 --> 02:45:59,439
Malcolm is hitting me over the head with

3849
02:45:57,279 --> 02:46:03,120
it and I would have thought the moment

3850
02:45:59,439 --> 02:46:06,479
spoke for itself. So restraint

3851
02:46:03,120 --> 02:46:10,840
in the production of real emotion is

3852
02:46:06,479 --> 02:46:10,840
absolutely central

3853
02:46:14,640 --> 02:46:19,040
to pick up on a theme that I've been

3854
02:46:16,640 --> 02:46:20,880
talking a lot about um that of

3855
02:46:19,040 --> 02:46:22,880
expectations.

3856
02:46:20,880 --> 02:46:25,120
Uh,

3857
02:46:22,880 --> 02:46:27,120
funny is very hard when there is an

3858
02:46:25,120 --> 02:46:29,600
expectation that you're going to be

3859
02:46:27,120 --> 02:46:32,800
funny. So, the job of the comedian who

3860
02:46:29,600 --> 02:46:35,279
walks on the stage at a comedy club is

3861
02:46:32,800 --> 02:46:38,880
really hard because everyone thinks the

3862
02:46:35,279 --> 02:46:40,000
first thing out of his or her mouth is

3863
02:46:38,880 --> 02:46:41,359
uh something that you're supposed to

3864
02:46:40,000 --> 02:46:43,120
laugh at. And if you don't laugh, then

3865
02:46:41,359 --> 02:46:47,600
you think you've been cheated in some

3866
02:46:43,120 --> 02:46:50,800
way. A far easier way to be funny is to

3867
02:46:47,600 --> 02:46:54,080
set the expectation um for humor to the

3868
02:46:50,800 --> 02:46:56,640
off position before you start. Right?

3869
02:46:54,080 --> 02:46:58,319
So, uh it's easy to be funny

3870
02:46:56,640 --> 02:47:01,120
unexpectedly

3871
02:46:58,319 --> 02:47:04,479
in the context of something else. So, I

3872
02:47:01,120 --> 02:47:06,080
can do the latter. I can be funny in a

3873
02:47:04,479 --> 02:47:08,080
context where I'm not expected to be

3874
02:47:06,080 --> 02:47:11,439
funny. I cannot be funny in a context

3875
02:47:08,080 --> 02:47:14,080
where I'm expected to be funny. Um, so

3876
02:47:11,439 --> 02:47:16,560
that's a a kind of an important thing to

3877
02:47:14,080 --> 02:47:18,399
keep in mind that if you do want to have

3878
02:47:16,560 --> 02:47:20,880
as an outcome for whatever piece you're

3879
02:47:18,399 --> 02:47:24,160
writing that someone smiles or laughs,

3880
02:47:20,880 --> 02:47:27,359
then better to do it quietly

3881
02:47:24,160 --> 02:47:29,920
um, as a side effect of your writing

3882
02:47:27,359 --> 02:47:31,439
project than as a direct effect. Never

3883
02:47:29,920 --> 02:47:33,040
announce that you're going to be funny

3884
02:47:31,439 --> 02:47:36,080
in any I don't when I say announce I

3885
02:47:33,040 --> 02:47:36,880
mean don't set it up as a humor piece. I

3886
02:47:36,080 --> 02:47:39,279
always think, you know, in the New

3887
02:47:36,880 --> 02:47:41,520
Yorker, they have a a humor column

3888
02:47:39,279 --> 02:47:43,359
called shouts and murmurss. And that is

3889
02:47:41,520 --> 02:47:46,080
precisely the reason why I will never

3890
02:47:43,359 --> 02:47:47,920
write a shouts and murmurss, right?

3891
02:47:46,080 --> 02:47:49,840
Because they tell you before you even

3892
02:47:47,920 --> 02:47:54,479
start that it's supposed to be funny.

3893
02:47:49,840 --> 02:47:57,120
Um, but to slip in something at the end,

3894
02:47:54,479 --> 02:47:59,359
remember, humor is merely a pleasant

3895
02:47:57,120 --> 02:48:01,920
deviation from an expectation. That's

3896
02:47:59,359 --> 02:48:04,479
what it is, right? You laugh because you

3897
02:48:01,920 --> 02:48:08,160
have been taken by surprise by the by

3898
02:48:04,479 --> 02:48:10,560
the connection that the person you're

3899
02:48:08,160 --> 02:48:12,319
communicating with has made. They've

3900
02:48:10,560 --> 02:48:14,399
jumped somewhere you didn't expect them

3901
02:48:12,319 --> 02:48:16,880
to jump. And that moment in that moment

3902
02:48:14,399 --> 02:48:19,840
you you oh you you you burst out

3903
02:48:16,880 --> 02:48:22,399
laughing. Um so there's a that and that

3904
02:48:19,840 --> 02:48:25,200
jump can be out of playfulness. It can

3905
02:48:22,399 --> 02:48:26,479
be out of a kind of pretend malice. It

3906
02:48:25,200 --> 02:48:29,520
can be out I mean there's a million

3907
02:48:26,479 --> 02:48:33,520
reasons insight to make that unexpected

3908
02:48:29,520 --> 02:48:37,840
jump. And so it's a matter of of uh of

3909
02:48:33,520 --> 02:48:39,760
creating a context where uh those kinds

3910
02:48:37,840 --> 02:48:43,760
of responses

3911
02:48:39,760 --> 02:48:47,160
um are uh are uh are easily found,

3912
02:48:43,760 --> 02:48:47,160
easily produced.

3913
02:48:51,439 --> 02:48:57,279
So I had done a piece for the New Yorker

3914
02:48:54,319 --> 02:49:00,399
many years ago about a psychiatrist

3915
02:48:57,279 --> 02:49:05,760
named Dorothy Lewis who specialty was

3916
02:49:00,399 --> 02:49:07,760
serial killers and uh it's a long long

3917
02:49:05,760 --> 02:49:11,200
article kind of a profile of her work

3918
02:49:07,760 --> 02:49:14,240
her and her work. 10 years pass and a

3919
02:49:11,200 --> 02:49:17,600
British playwright named Byron Leverly

3920
02:49:14,240 --> 02:49:20,319
Levery wrote a play a very good play in

3921
02:49:17,600 --> 02:49:23,040
which some of the dialogue a good

3922
02:49:20,319 --> 02:49:25,760
portion of the dialogue had been lifted

3923
02:49:23,040 --> 02:49:28,560
directly from my article

3924
02:49:25,760 --> 02:49:30,560
maybe 15 or 20 lines I can't remember

3925
02:49:28,560 --> 02:49:34,319
how much this was brought to my

3926
02:49:30,560 --> 02:49:37,600
attention and my initial reaction was

3927
02:49:34,319 --> 02:49:39,840
this is outrageous she stole my work and

3928
02:49:37,600 --> 02:49:42,080
then I read the play. I was like,

3929
02:49:39,840 --> 02:49:44,240
actually, the play's really good. And

3930
02:49:42,080 --> 02:49:45,760
then I thought,

3931
02:49:44,240 --> 02:49:47,760
well, maybe I should meet the playwright

3932
02:49:45,760 --> 02:49:49,439
and find out what happened. So, I called

3933
02:49:47,760 --> 02:49:51,680
her up

3934
02:49:49,439 --> 02:49:53,840
and we had a long really interesting

3935
02:49:51,680 --> 02:49:55,359
conversation. She was incredibly

3936
02:49:53,840 --> 02:49:56,720
apologetic.

3937
02:49:55,359 --> 02:50:00,399
But I the more I thought about it, the

3938
02:49:56,720 --> 02:50:02,560
more I realized why did I think I was

3939
02:50:00,399 --> 02:50:05,279
victimized?

3940
02:50:02,560 --> 02:50:06,319
Like, it seemed like an odd I couldn't I

3941
02:50:05,279 --> 02:50:08,399
couldn't figure out why I was

3942
02:50:06,319 --> 02:50:10,399
victimized. So, she didn't take my

3943
02:50:08,399 --> 02:50:12,479
entire article,

3944
02:50:10,399 --> 02:50:14,479
put her name on it, publish it, and make

3945
02:50:12,479 --> 02:50:16,560
money off it. That's theft. That's clear

3946
02:50:14,479 --> 02:50:19,279
to me. She took a little She read my

3947
02:50:16,560 --> 02:50:22,479
article, was clearly inspired by it to

3948
02:50:19,279 --> 02:50:26,640
write a really good work of fiction, and

3949
02:50:22,479 --> 02:50:30,399
she took a small piece of text in 20

3950
02:50:26,640 --> 02:50:32,800
lines out of a 7,000word piece and other

3951
02:50:30,399 --> 02:50:36,080
little details and plugged them into her

3952
02:50:32,800 --> 02:50:38,240
fictionalized narrative. She was taking

3953
02:50:36,080 --> 02:50:40,640
my work and turning a small part of it,

3954
02:50:38,240 --> 02:50:43,359
the idea and small part of the building

3955
02:50:40,640 --> 02:50:46,000
blocks of it into something new and

3956
02:50:43,359 --> 02:50:49,200
really good.

3957
02:50:46,000 --> 02:50:50,960
She had contrived to create art out of a

3958
02:50:49,200 --> 02:50:53,359
work of non-fiction.

3959
02:50:50,960 --> 02:50:55,600
Why wasn't I, as I thought about it, I

3960
02:50:53,359 --> 02:50:57,920
realized, why was my first reaction not

3961
02:50:55,600 --> 02:50:59,600
to be flattered?

3962
02:50:57,920 --> 02:51:02,319
I mean, how often does that happen? Not

3963
02:50:59,600 --> 02:51:04,960
only that, she took it and the show ran

3964
02:51:02,319 --> 02:51:08,560
on Broadway and got incredible reviews.

3965
02:51:04,960 --> 02:51:10,880
I mean, what was my problem? essentially

3966
02:51:08,560 --> 02:51:12,800
when I as I thought about it and it was

3967
02:51:10,880 --> 02:51:15,439
then it was when I realized that I

3968
02:51:12,800 --> 02:51:17,840
didn't

3969
02:51:15,439 --> 02:51:19,680
that I had that reaction that I realized

3970
02:51:17,840 --> 02:51:21,840
oh this is a case where I think I can

3971
02:51:19,680 --> 02:51:23,120
write in the first person because I do

3972
02:51:21,840 --> 02:51:25,840
have an interesting story to tell

3973
02:51:23,120 --> 02:51:27,279
because we've all read a million times

3974
02:51:25,840 --> 02:51:29,439
the story about the writer who's

3975
02:51:27,279 --> 02:51:32,640
plagiarized and it's they're full of

3976
02:51:29,439 --> 02:51:35,359
outrage and they're they act as if you

3977
02:51:32,640 --> 02:51:38,560
know they had built some they had

3978
02:51:35,359 --> 02:51:40,319
written the Bible and someone had ripped

3979
02:51:38,560 --> 02:51:43,279
it off and was selling it in Walmart

3980
02:51:40,319 --> 02:51:44,720
under their name, you know, and I've

3981
02:51:43,279 --> 02:51:46,319
read that story so many times now. I

3982
02:51:44,720 --> 02:51:48,640
don't read another one of those. So,

3983
02:51:46,319 --> 02:51:51,840
that's was my why I would never have

3984
02:51:48,640 --> 02:51:54,080
written about this had it had I had I

3985
02:51:51,840 --> 02:51:56,479
had the conventional response. But once

3986
02:51:54,080 --> 02:52:00,000
I realized that actually

3987
02:51:56,479 --> 02:52:02,479
um I was flattered on some level to have

3988
02:52:00,000 --> 02:52:04,479
participated in a work of artistic

3989
02:52:02,479 --> 02:52:05,760
transformation then I thought well

3990
02:52:04,479 --> 02:52:07,920
actually this is a case where people

3991
02:52:05,760 --> 02:52:11,040
might actually be interested in my

3992
02:52:07,920 --> 02:52:13,359
story. And then when I realized wait

3993
02:52:11,040 --> 02:52:15,840
this is a great way to talk about the

3994
02:52:13,359 --> 02:52:18,479
way art is created and how we're very

3995
02:52:15,840 --> 02:52:22,240
dishonest about it and that all art is

3996
02:52:18,479 --> 02:52:24,000
about this. This is what people do. you

3997
02:52:22,240 --> 02:52:25,120
you take bits and pieces from here and

3998
02:52:24,000 --> 02:52:27,600
there and you combine them into

3999
02:52:25,120 --> 02:52:30,160
something new. That's art. And I had a

4000
02:52:27,600 --> 02:52:32,319
the middle of the piece is all about um

4001
02:52:30,160 --> 02:52:34,240
songwriting because musicians are the

4002
02:52:32,319 --> 02:52:37,279
most open about this. They don't get

4003
02:52:34,240 --> 02:52:41,200
hung up about sometimes they do, but m

4004
02:52:37,279 --> 02:52:43,359
musicians borrow and steal and recombine

4005
02:52:41,200 --> 02:52:46,080
and take riffs from each other and then

4006
02:52:43,359 --> 02:52:47,840
half the time they'll tell you

4007
02:52:46,080 --> 02:52:49,200
this. I got this idea from here and

4008
02:52:47,840 --> 02:52:51,600
there and there and they're all pleased

4009
02:52:49,200 --> 02:52:54,319
as punch with their ability to kind of

4010
02:52:51,600 --> 02:52:57,120
filch from various sources and I thought

4011
02:52:54,319 --> 02:53:00,640
why can't writers be as generous as

4012
02:52:57,120 --> 02:53:03,600
musicians. Writers have this are so

4013
02:53:00,640 --> 02:53:06,160
weirdly defensive and self-protective

4014
02:53:03,600 --> 02:53:08,880
and narcissistic about their work drives

4015
02:53:06,160 --> 02:53:11,520
me crazy. It's like everyone should just

4016
02:53:08,880 --> 02:53:13,359
relax and understand that everything we

4017
02:53:11,520 --> 02:53:15,120
do is a function of little bits and

4018
02:53:13,359 --> 02:53:17,439
pieces we've learned from others. And

4019
02:53:15,120 --> 02:53:18,960
the sooner we accept that fact and have

4020
02:53:17,439 --> 02:53:22,520
a little humility about our work, the

4021
02:53:18,960 --> 02:53:22,520
better off we'll be.

4022
02:53:26,399 --> 02:53:32,479
If you're talking about writing about

4023
02:53:28,479 --> 02:53:34,960
somebody, um there's a moment when

4024
02:53:32,479 --> 02:53:39,120
there at some point you have to bring

4025
02:53:34,960 --> 02:53:42,560
your subject to life, not just with

4026
02:53:39,120 --> 02:53:44,800
what they say, but with some kind of

4027
02:53:42,560 --> 02:53:47,760
physical description. And I'm not very

4028
02:53:44,800 --> 02:53:49,840
good at that. You know, I read novelist

4029
02:53:47,760 --> 02:53:51,120
descriptions of characters and they're

4030
02:53:49,840 --> 02:53:53,680
amaz, you know, a good novelist is

4031
02:53:51,120 --> 02:53:56,640
amazing at that. That's why I'm not as

4032
02:53:53,680 --> 02:53:59,600
nearly as good. And so I always feel I

4033
02:53:56,640 --> 02:54:02,560
have to kind of uh in some way

4034
02:53:59,600 --> 02:54:04,880
compensate for my weakness in that area.

4035
02:54:02,560 --> 02:54:08,080
And so what I try and do is I try and

4036
02:54:04,880 --> 02:54:11,600
make sure that the description is

4037
02:54:08,080 --> 02:54:14,000
attached to a narrative moment that

4038
02:54:11,600 --> 02:54:17,439
gives it

4039
02:54:14,000 --> 02:54:20,240
um makes it more consequential.

4040
02:54:17,439 --> 02:54:23,200
Um, so in my piece I wrote about called

4041
02:54:20,240 --> 02:54:27,600
Something Borrowed about the playwright

4042
02:54:23,200 --> 02:54:30,880
who who plagiarized me, at the very end

4043
02:54:27,600 --> 02:54:34,640
of the piece, I invite her to my house

4044
02:54:30,880 --> 02:54:37,279
and we talk and she starts to cry as she

4045
02:54:34,640 --> 02:54:39,760
describes about all the controversy that

4046
02:54:37,279 --> 02:54:42,960
she brought upon herself because she

4047
02:54:39,760 --> 02:54:46,160
plagiarized my work. And I have spent

4048
02:54:42,960 --> 02:54:48,479
the rest of the previous all of the

4049
02:54:46,160 --> 02:54:52,000
previous arguments in the piece have

4050
02:54:48,479 --> 02:54:54,240
been about convincing you that she's not

4051
02:54:52,000 --> 02:54:56,399
an evil person and that in fact she

4052
02:54:54,240 --> 02:54:58,479
created something wonderful from the

4053
02:54:56,399 --> 02:55:01,920
words she took from me and that we

4054
02:54:58,479 --> 02:55:03,840
should revise our feelings of plagiarism

4055
02:55:01,920 --> 02:55:06,560
to be much more generous about this

4056
02:55:03,840 --> 02:55:09,600
practice and not to get so crazily

4057
02:55:06,560 --> 02:55:11,920
worked up about it. And so when I when

4058
02:55:09,600 --> 02:55:13,760
we finally meet her, I want you to love

4059
02:55:11,920 --> 02:55:17,040
her.

4060
02:55:13,760 --> 02:55:19,359
Um, and I want you to kind of whatever

4061
02:55:17,040 --> 02:55:21,520
feelings, negative feelings you might

4062
02:55:19,359 --> 02:55:25,040
have had towards her at the beginning

4063
02:55:21,520 --> 02:55:28,000
when I told you that she stole 20 lines

4064
02:55:25,040 --> 02:55:29,760
from me, I want them to go away. And I

4065
02:55:28,000 --> 02:55:33,439
want you to say, "Oh, actually, I was

4066
02:55:29,760 --> 02:55:35,040
wrong. There's she did something

4067
02:55:33,439 --> 02:55:38,800
praiseworthy."

4068
02:55:35,040 --> 02:55:41,200
And we visited all of this controversy

4069
02:55:38,800 --> 02:55:44,319
on her for no good reason. She was just

4070
02:55:41,200 --> 02:55:48,399
creating art, right, in a way that is

4071
02:55:44,319 --> 02:55:50,720
how art is created. And so

4072
02:55:48,399 --> 02:55:54,880
at that point in the piece, then I

4073
02:55:50,720 --> 02:55:57,680
describe her because my description

4074
02:55:54,880 --> 02:55:59,439
works to win you over. It's part of the

4075
02:55:57,680 --> 02:56:01,840
process by which I'm trying to change

4076
02:55:59,439 --> 02:56:04,160
your mind about her. And once I have

4077
02:56:01,840 --> 02:56:08,000
turned her from a name on a page into

4078
02:56:04,160 --> 02:56:10,960
someone who's flesh and blood, then I

4079
02:56:08,000 --> 02:56:14,080
think I expedite

4080
02:56:10,960 --> 02:56:17,040
the process by which you embrace her as

4081
02:56:14,080 --> 02:56:20,520
a person and her choices. So I'll read,

4082
02:56:17,040 --> 02:56:20,520
let me just read

4083
02:56:20,880 --> 02:56:27,560
the moment that I do this and why it's

4084
02:56:24,160 --> 02:56:27,560
where it is.

4085
02:56:32,160 --> 02:56:37,439
And I'm trying in that moment. I want

4086
02:56:35,359 --> 02:56:43,840
her to be sympathetic.

4087
02:56:37,439 --> 02:56:46,399
Uh I want you to kind of um forgive her

4088
02:56:43,840 --> 02:56:49,359
and uh

4089
02:56:46,399 --> 02:56:54,080
and I want to be non as nonjudgmental

4090
02:56:49,359 --> 02:56:56,479
as I can. Um, and that notion that I

4091
02:56:54,080 --> 02:56:58,560
wanted to be as non-judgmental as I can

4092
02:56:56,479 --> 02:57:01,279
made me think that I wanted to be as

4093
02:56:58,560 --> 02:57:03,120
parsimonious in my description as

4094
02:57:01,279 --> 02:57:05,840
possible.

4095
02:57:03,120 --> 02:57:07,840
The more the longer you spend and the

4096
02:57:05,840 --> 02:57:10,560
more

4097
02:57:07,840 --> 02:57:14,080
uh words you use and phrases you summon

4098
02:57:10,560 --> 02:57:16,720
and analogies you make in describing

4099
02:57:14,080 --> 02:57:19,359
someone, the more your own point of view

4100
02:57:16,720 --> 02:57:22,160
creeps into the

4101
02:57:19,359 --> 02:57:26,720
um the picture. the more it becomes

4102
02:57:22,160 --> 02:57:29,279
impossible to separate my own biases,

4103
02:57:26,720 --> 02:57:32,160
the writer's own biases from the image

4104
02:57:29,279 --> 02:57:34,000
that is emerging. And I didn't want to

4105
02:57:32,160 --> 02:57:36,080
do that.

4106
02:57:34,000 --> 02:57:37,760
Um, and I didn't want to feel I didn't

4107
02:57:36,080 --> 02:57:41,040
want it to feel writerly either. I

4108
02:57:37,760 --> 02:57:45,040
wanted it I just wanted her to show up

4109
02:57:41,040 --> 02:57:47,120
and talk. And so I don't tell you she's

4110
02:57:45,040 --> 02:57:50,399
coming to my apartment. I just start a

4111
02:57:47,120 --> 02:57:52,880
new section and says

4112
02:57:50,399 --> 02:57:55,040
Byron Levery came to see me in early

4113
02:57:52,880 --> 02:57:57,040
October of that year and it was a

4114
02:57:55,040 --> 02:58:00,399
beautiful day.

4115
02:57:57,040 --> 02:58:03,040
And right even right there even it's an

4116
02:58:00,399 --> 02:58:05,359
important detail because it's not dark

4117
02:58:03,040 --> 02:58:07,520
and stormy. You know, the skies weren't

4118
02:58:05,359 --> 02:58:11,120
threatening. It's a lovely day. We sat

4119
02:58:07,520 --> 02:58:12,479
in the sun, you know, and I say

4120
02:58:11,120 --> 02:58:14,720
there's only two sentences of

4121
02:58:12,479 --> 02:58:16,720
description. She's in her 50s with

4122
02:58:14,720 --> 02:58:19,120
short, tusled blonde hair and pale blue

4123
02:58:16,720 --> 02:58:21,680
eyes and was wearing jeans and a loose

4124
02:58:19,120 --> 02:58:25,120
green shirt and clogs. There was

4125
02:58:21,680 --> 02:58:27,840
something rugged and raw about her.

4126
02:58:25,120 --> 02:58:30,240
That's enough, I think, to tell you

4127
02:58:27,840 --> 02:58:33,680
something about her, who she is. She

4128
02:58:30,240 --> 02:58:35,279
didn't She was coming She didn't know

4129
02:58:33,680 --> 02:58:37,439
what would happen. She She at that

4130
02:58:35,279 --> 02:58:40,479
point, she had no idea that I was on her

4131
02:58:37,439 --> 02:58:45,279
side. For all she knew, she was coming

4132
02:58:40,479 --> 02:58:48,319
to be dressed down, exposed, denounced,

4133
02:58:45,279 --> 02:58:52,560
and she put on her kind of working

4134
02:58:48,319 --> 02:58:56,640
clothes, right? Her simplest clogs, a

4135
02:58:52,560 --> 02:58:59,120
loose shirt, and jeans. And her hair is

4136
02:58:56,640 --> 02:59:03,120
tussled. It's not combed. She's not

4137
02:58:59,120 --> 02:59:05,439
wearing pearls. She didn't. And she

4138
02:59:03,120 --> 02:59:08,240
comes and I use those two words, rugged

4139
02:59:05,439 --> 02:59:10,319
and raw. And that's it.

4140
02:59:08,240 --> 02:59:13,600
We're done. I'm not giving you any more

4141
02:59:10,319 --> 02:59:15,279
of what she seems like, looks like. I

4142
02:59:13,600 --> 02:59:18,640
mean, I I will describe things she does

4143
02:59:15,279 --> 02:59:20,399
in my apartment, but you have to make do

4144
02:59:18,640 --> 02:59:22,640
with

4145
02:59:20,399 --> 02:59:26,720
with the jeans and the loose shirt and

4146
02:59:22,640 --> 02:59:29,040
the rugged and the raw. And

4147
02:59:26,720 --> 02:59:31,600
the rugged and the raw tells you those

4148
02:59:29,040 --> 02:59:35,200
are two words that are they're not

4149
02:59:31,600 --> 02:59:38,560
opposites, but they're pretty far apart.

4150
02:59:35,200 --> 02:59:41,600
rugged is that she's not

4151
02:59:38,560 --> 02:59:44,240
refined. She's not a perfectionist.

4152
02:59:41,600 --> 02:59:46,080
She's not obsessive and anal. Not every

4153
02:59:44,240 --> 02:59:50,800
little piece

4154
02:59:46,080 --> 02:59:53,040
part of her is in is is in is in its

4155
02:59:50,800 --> 02:59:55,200
right place, right? Which sort of is

4156
02:59:53,040 --> 02:59:58,960
part of my attempt to get you to forgive

4157
02:59:55,200 --> 03:00:01,200
her. Someone who was if she had been the

4158
02:59:58,960 --> 03:00:03,120
person who was obsessive, the opposite

4159
03:00:01,200 --> 03:00:05,120
of rugged. If she had been the perfectly

4160
03:00:03,120 --> 03:00:07,680
put together person and she had done

4161
03:00:05,120 --> 03:00:10,880
this, then it would be impossible for us

4162
03:00:07,680 --> 03:00:12,640
to understand that it was um

4163
03:00:10,880 --> 03:00:16,399
unintentional.

4164
03:00:12,640 --> 03:00:18,800
I mean, when obsessive anal people

4165
03:00:16,399 --> 03:00:20,880
plagiarize, they it it didn't happen by

4166
03:00:18,800 --> 03:00:22,720
accident, right? Because nothing escapes

4167
03:00:20,880 --> 03:00:24,800
their notice. If she's rugged and

4168
03:00:22,720 --> 03:00:27,279
unfinished,

4169
03:00:24,800 --> 03:00:28,880
then you're like, "Oh, she's the kind of

4170
03:00:27,279 --> 03:00:31,840
person who would just kind of cobble

4171
03:00:28,880 --> 03:00:35,920
things together and go with it." And Raw

4172
03:00:31,840 --> 03:00:38,720
suggests that she's open.

4173
03:00:35,920 --> 03:00:42,479
She's she carries her wounds. She has

4174
03:00:38,720 --> 03:00:46,560
wounds. And her wounds are evident. So

4175
03:00:42,479 --> 03:00:48,240
she's not she didn't show up in a suit

4176
03:00:46,560 --> 03:00:50,160
of armor.

4177
03:00:48,240 --> 03:00:52,640
She didn't show up with lawyers. She

4178
03:00:50,160 --> 03:00:56,479
didn't show up with a long prepared

4179
03:00:52,640 --> 03:01:00,000
statement. She showed up vulnerable.

4180
03:00:56,479 --> 03:01:02,720
Right. and that your heart is my heart

4181
03:01:00,000 --> 03:01:04,479
went out to her when I saw the way she

4182
03:01:02,720 --> 03:01:08,560
is and I want the reader's heart to go

4183
03:01:04,479 --> 03:01:11,520
out to her. So there's and then I'm like

4184
03:01:08,560 --> 03:01:15,359
I said I'm done. I can't to go on any

4185
03:01:11,520 --> 03:01:18,399
further is to is to have is to intrude

4186
03:01:15,359 --> 03:01:21,920
too much on what she's about to say.

4187
03:01:18,399 --> 03:01:24,720
From there on it's all all the words are

4188
03:01:21,920 --> 03:01:26,479
hers. So, I talk about her. She tells

4189
03:01:24,720 --> 03:01:28,880
her whole side of the story. And then

4190
03:01:26,479 --> 03:01:31,439
the last paragraph, in the last

4191
03:01:28,880 --> 03:01:34,479
paragraph of the piece,

4192
03:01:31,439 --> 03:01:36,319
she starts to cry. She's just, and you

4193
03:01:34,479 --> 03:01:39,439
realize how completely devastated she's

4194
03:01:36,319 --> 03:01:41,520
been by this whole controversy. And that

4195
03:01:39,439 --> 03:01:43,120
far from being

4196
03:01:41,520 --> 03:01:45,760
the culprit, the perpetrator of the

4197
03:01:43,120 --> 03:01:48,080
crime, she's the victim of the crime.

4198
03:01:45,760 --> 03:01:52,319
Right? and all those details that I drop

4199
03:01:48,080 --> 03:01:54,479
at the beginning that she she comes and

4200
03:01:52,319 --> 03:01:57,279
she's raw and she's just been savaged by

4201
03:01:54,479 --> 03:01:59,040
someone in the paper and then I tell you

4202
03:01:57,279 --> 03:02:02,240
the whole story about how it was just a

4203
03:01:59,040 --> 03:02:04,640
kind of clumsy innocent mistake that she

4204
03:02:02,240 --> 03:02:06,800
used the stuff that she used and she was

4205
03:02:04,640 --> 03:02:09,279
trying to do something new and unusual

4206
03:02:06,800 --> 03:02:12,160
and she she pulled it off but then this

4207
03:02:09,279 --> 03:02:14,479
little weird controversy derailed the

4208
03:02:12,160 --> 03:02:17,200
whole thing and now she has a new play

4209
03:02:14,479 --> 03:02:19,840
out and no one likes it And you know,

4210
03:02:17,200 --> 03:02:22,319
she's sitting there.

4211
03:02:19,840 --> 03:02:23,600
It feels absolutely terrible. I've had

4212
03:02:22,319 --> 03:02:25,920
to go through the pain for being

4213
03:02:23,600 --> 03:02:27,359
careless. I'd like to repair what

4214
03:02:25,920 --> 03:02:30,240
happened and I don't know how to do

4215
03:02:27,359 --> 03:02:32,399
that. I just didn't think I was doing

4216
03:02:30,240 --> 03:02:34,240
the wrong thing. And then the article

4217
03:02:32,399 --> 03:02:35,760
comes out in the New York Times and

4218
03:02:34,240 --> 03:02:38,960
every continent in the world. The story

4219
03:02:35,760 --> 03:02:42,800
of her plagiarism was there was a long

4220
03:02:38,960 --> 03:02:44,399
silence. She was heartbroken.

4221
03:02:42,800 --> 03:02:47,840
But more than that, she was confused

4222
03:02:44,399 --> 03:02:49,760
because she didn't understand how 675,

4223
03:02:47,840 --> 03:02:51,760
that's how many words she took from me.

4224
03:02:49,760 --> 03:02:54,080
Rather, ordinary words could bring the

4225
03:02:51,760 --> 03:02:57,279
walls tumbling down.

4226
03:02:54,080 --> 03:03:00,560
It's been horrible and bloody.

4227
03:02:57,279 --> 03:03:04,160
She began to cry. I'm still composting

4228
03:03:00,560 --> 03:03:06,240
what happened. It will be for a purpose.

4229
03:03:04,160 --> 03:03:10,240
Whatever that purpose is, that's the

4230
03:03:06,240 --> 03:03:11,840
end, right? And

4231
03:03:10,240 --> 03:03:13,359
I want your heart to go. My heart went

4232
03:03:11,840 --> 03:03:18,800
out to her. I want your heart to go out

4233
03:03:13,359 --> 03:03:21,520
to her. And that's all of that stuff

4234
03:03:18,800 --> 03:03:24,399
um is what makes the the physical

4235
03:03:21,520 --> 03:03:26,960
description is embedded in all of that

4236
03:03:24,399 --> 03:03:31,760
stuff because it makes sense to you now

4237
03:03:26,960 --> 03:03:33,439
that she looks the way she looks raw and

4238
03:03:31,760 --> 03:03:35,279
um

4239
03:03:33,439 --> 03:03:37,279
uh almost like she she sounds like she

4240
03:03:35,279 --> 03:03:39,200
had dressed in a hurry without thinking

4241
03:03:37,279 --> 03:03:41,439
in the morning. She's wearing like clogs

4242
03:03:39,200 --> 03:03:44,160
and jeans and she hasn't brushed her

4243
03:03:41,439 --> 03:03:47,920
hair and she comes and I give her some

4244
03:03:44,160 --> 03:03:49,840
tea and she starts to cry. You know, um

4245
03:03:47,920 --> 03:03:51,840
any of those facts earlier in the piece

4246
03:03:49,840 --> 03:03:54,840
wouldn't have had that same emotional

4247
03:03:51,840 --> 03:03:54,840
meaning.

4248
03:04:05,359 --> 03:04:11,279
I'm fascinated by

4249
03:04:08,000 --> 03:04:14,160
that notion of capturing someone's

4250
03:04:11,279 --> 03:04:19,120
attention. And that's what a title is,

4251
03:04:14,160 --> 03:04:22,399
right? A title is an even more

4252
03:04:19,120 --> 03:04:25,600
um edited

4253
03:04:22,399 --> 03:04:27,439
attention grabber. So, I think I spend

4254
03:04:25,600 --> 03:04:29,760
enormous amounts of time thinking about

4255
03:04:27,439 --> 03:04:33,359
the titles to my books,

4256
03:04:29,760 --> 03:04:36,800
Tipping Point, Blink, Outliers,

4257
03:04:33,359 --> 03:04:39,120
and no one for each of those titles.

4258
03:04:36,800 --> 03:04:41,040
Well, for Blink and Outliers, there were

4259
03:04:39,120 --> 03:04:43,920
people who thought that tried to talk me

4260
03:04:41,040 --> 03:04:45,600
out of those titles. And I I will not

4261
03:04:43,920 --> 03:04:48,080
get I I cannot be talked out of my

4262
03:04:45,600 --> 03:04:50,240
titles. That is the one thing I can I

4263
03:04:48,080 --> 03:04:53,120
will open I am open to criticism on

4264
03:04:50,240 --> 03:04:54,399
every level. And I but not about titles

4265
03:04:53,120 --> 03:04:57,040
because that's the thing that I feel

4266
03:04:54,399 --> 03:04:59,279
most strongly about. You know, my

4267
03:04:57,040 --> 03:05:01,920
podcast revision is history was no one

4268
03:04:59,279 --> 03:05:04,560
wanted that title. I was like, nope,

4269
03:05:01,920 --> 03:05:06,319
that's what we're going to call it. Um

4270
03:05:04,560 --> 03:05:10,319
because it's so these this is something

4271
03:05:06,319 --> 03:05:13,680
that I've that I have um uh that I kind

4272
03:05:10,319 --> 03:05:17,040
of prioritize that notion of because a

4273
03:05:13,680 --> 03:05:18,720
title a title or a phrase frames

4274
03:05:17,040 --> 03:05:21,760
something

4275
03:05:18,720 --> 03:05:24,560
quickly in someone's mind and that once

4276
03:05:21,760 --> 03:05:27,439
you own the frame you have a huge

4277
03:05:24,560 --> 03:05:29,359
advantage in capturing their attention.

4278
03:05:27,439 --> 03:05:32,399
Like the title of my podcast,

4279
03:05:29,359 --> 03:05:35,040
Revisionist History, that's it. That's

4280
03:05:32,399 --> 03:05:36,960
everything I want to do, right? I want

4281
03:05:35,040 --> 03:05:39,920
to go over the thing that I that you

4282
03:05:36,960 --> 03:05:42,319
think you know and I want to twist it,

4283
03:05:39,920 --> 03:05:44,640
right? Uh

4284
03:05:42,319 --> 03:05:46,720
uh outliers

4285
03:05:44,640 --> 03:05:50,160
the the it's one of those beautiful

4286
03:05:46,720 --> 03:05:51,760
words that it's it it it the definition

4287
03:05:50,160 --> 03:05:53,439
of the word is in the word. I don't know

4288
03:05:51,760 --> 03:05:57,200
this. Is there a is there a word for

4289
03:05:53,439 --> 03:06:00,880
that? There must be it someone who lies

4290
03:05:57,200 --> 03:06:02,640
outside of the mainstream. That's what I

4291
03:06:00,880 --> 03:06:05,040
wanted to describe. How do you get

4292
03:06:02,640 --> 03:06:08,800
outside

4293
03:06:05,040 --> 03:06:12,080
is this great, fantastic one-word

4294
03:06:08,800 --> 03:06:16,000
description. And blink was about that's

4295
03:06:12,080 --> 03:06:18,479
what it was about, right? That moment,

4296
03:06:16,000 --> 03:06:21,520
what happens in a moment. Um you don't

4297
03:06:18,479 --> 03:06:25,040
need any other words if you've got that

4298
03:06:21,520 --> 03:06:28,160
um word. And so I think those um very

4299
03:06:25,040 --> 03:06:32,560
often in writing we leave the titles to

4300
03:06:28,160 --> 03:06:35,200
someone else which is in my you know a

4301
03:06:32,560 --> 03:06:38,240
mistake. You have to spend as much time

4302
03:06:35,200 --> 03:06:41,760
I think thinking about titles as you do

4303
03:06:38,240 --> 03:06:44,000
about content. In fact I sometimes do

4304
03:06:41,760 --> 03:06:45,359
this and I think I mentioned it once. I

4305
03:06:44,000 --> 03:06:48,080
have more more than more than one

4306
03:06:45,359 --> 03:06:49,920
occasion come up with a title first and

4307
03:06:48,080 --> 03:06:51,279
realize oh that's a great that's a great

4308
03:06:49,920 --> 03:06:53,040
story to write. I don't know what the

4309
03:06:51,279 --> 03:06:56,040
story is, but the title's fantastic,

4310
03:06:53,040 --> 03:06:56,040
right?

4311
03:06:59,680 --> 03:07:05,200
So,

4312
03:07:01,600 --> 03:07:08,640
titles and conceptual names and whatever

4313
03:07:05,200 --> 03:07:10,319
are always more powerful when they're

4314
03:07:08,640 --> 03:07:13,920
when there's an emotional connotation

4315
03:07:10,319 --> 03:07:16,560
attached to them. It's like the on the

4316
03:07:13,920 --> 03:07:19,840
theory of titles, I once made a list of

4317
03:07:16,560 --> 03:07:21,840
what I thought were the 20 or 25

4318
03:07:19,840 --> 03:07:23,760
greatest book titles of all time. And

4319
03:07:21,840 --> 03:07:27,520
there's a very very consistent pattern

4320
03:07:23,760 --> 03:07:30,640
in great book titles, which is that they

4321
03:07:27,520 --> 03:07:33,520
there is a if there are two words, the

4322
03:07:30,640 --> 03:07:36,319
two words in the title are intention,

4323
03:07:33,520 --> 03:07:38,640
they're contradictions.

4324
03:07:36,319 --> 03:07:41,680
Ralph Nater wrote famously wrote a book

4325
03:07:38,640 --> 03:07:43,680
about how unsafe cars were. It was with

4326
03:07:41,680 --> 03:07:45,920
the Corveyor and was called unsafe at

4327
03:07:43,680 --> 03:07:50,080
any speed.

4328
03:07:45,920 --> 03:07:55,920
The title has a contradiction, right?

4329
03:07:50,080 --> 03:07:57,760
Speed is about is a is a continuum with

4330
03:07:55,920 --> 03:08:00,800
safety on one end and unsafety on the

4331
03:07:57,760 --> 03:08:02,399
other. He's saying unsafe at any speed,

4332
03:08:00,800 --> 03:08:05,840
meaning the continuum doesn't work

4333
03:08:02,399 --> 03:08:07,920
anymore, right? it doesn't or uh silent

4334
03:08:05,840 --> 03:08:10,720
spring by the famous book by Rachel

4335
03:08:07,920 --> 03:08:14,240
Carson that's a contradiction

4336
03:08:10,720 --> 03:08:15,840
spring is about noise that's the spring

4337
03:08:14,240 --> 03:08:17,520
is about many things but principally

4338
03:08:15,840 --> 03:08:20,640
what what happens in spring the world

4339
03:08:17,520 --> 03:08:24,160
wakes up and you hear spring even before

4340
03:08:20,640 --> 03:08:26,000
you feel it or smell it or you hear it

4341
03:08:24,160 --> 03:08:27,520
the birds come out the crickets come out

4342
03:08:26,000 --> 03:08:30,080
the whatever and she's saying it's

4343
03:08:27,520 --> 03:08:33,200
silent it's a really simple

4344
03:08:30,080 --> 03:08:34,800
two super simple words in juxiposition

4345
03:08:33,200 --> 03:08:37,200
And the tension between those words

4346
03:08:34,800 --> 03:08:39,279
creates a book title that people

4347
03:08:37,200 --> 03:08:40,560
remember to this day. People don't even

4348
03:08:39,279 --> 03:08:42,560
read that book anymore, but they know

4349
03:08:40,560 --> 03:08:44,560
what that that title has lingered. When

4350
03:08:42,560 --> 03:08:46,560
you see two words in combination that

4351
03:08:44,560 --> 03:08:49,840
aren't supposed to be together, some

4352
03:08:46,560 --> 03:08:51,760
part of you reacts like what's going on.

4353
03:08:49,840 --> 03:08:54,080
That's not right. Right? And that's what

4354
03:08:51,760 --> 03:08:57,600
these titles are capitalizing. They're

4355
03:08:54,080 --> 03:09:00,160
capitalizing on that feeling of that you

4356
03:08:57,600 --> 03:09:01,279
have that something's not that something

4357
03:09:00,160 --> 03:09:02,560
is imperfect, that something's not

4358
03:09:01,279 --> 03:09:04,960
right, that there's something's in

4359
03:09:02,560 --> 03:09:07,359
conflict. Right? So, anytime you can

4360
03:09:04,960 --> 03:09:09,520
take a word that has this has some kind

4361
03:09:07,359 --> 03:09:13,080
of emotional weight attached to it, I

4362
03:09:09,520 --> 03:09:13,080
think you're doing well.

4363
03:09:16,800 --> 03:09:21,279
I wanted to go into advertising

4364
03:09:19,120 --> 03:09:22,560
when I was in college. That was my that

4365
03:09:21,279 --> 03:09:26,000
was what I that was the world I wanted

4366
03:09:22,560 --> 03:09:28,000
to end up in. Um because I was and

4367
03:09:26,000 --> 03:09:30,000
remain

4368
03:09:28,000 --> 03:09:33,359
fascinated by the notion of

4369
03:09:30,000 --> 03:09:35,920
communicating something to someone under

4370
03:09:33,359 --> 03:09:37,359
severe time constraints.

4371
03:09:35,920 --> 03:09:41,200
If you're willing to give me four hours

4372
03:09:37,359 --> 03:09:43,040
of your time, how hard is it for me to

4373
03:09:41,200 --> 03:09:46,000
if you say I'm going to read your book?

4374
03:09:43,040 --> 03:09:47,359
Like it's a relatively easy task. You've

4375
03:09:46,000 --> 03:09:48,880
you've given that kind of commitment.

4376
03:09:47,359 --> 03:09:51,439
All right. I can tell a story. I can

4377
03:09:48,880 --> 03:09:55,200
take my time to get to the to the point.

4378
03:09:51,439 --> 03:09:56,800
I can take you on all kinds of of of of

4379
03:09:55,200 --> 03:09:58,960
uh digressions. I can do all these

4380
03:09:56,800 --> 03:10:00,640
things because I have the lux the most

4381
03:09:58,960 --> 03:10:02,800
important luxury of all. I have the

4382
03:10:00,640 --> 03:10:04,240
luxury of your attention. In

4383
03:10:02,800 --> 03:10:07,600
advertising, they don't have the luxury

4384
03:10:04,240 --> 03:10:11,120
of your attention. Right? Time is money.

4385
03:10:07,600 --> 03:10:13,359
People most most times people ignore

4386
03:10:11,120 --> 03:10:15,760
ads. They skip over them. They go out of

4387
03:10:13,359 --> 03:10:17,520
their way to avoid them. And even if

4388
03:10:15,760 --> 03:10:19,760
they pay attention, they pay attention

4389
03:10:17,520 --> 03:10:22,319
in the television for 30 seconds and

4390
03:10:19,760 --> 03:10:24,000
you're done. Right? So I have always

4391
03:10:22,319 --> 03:10:26,560
been

4392
03:10:24,000 --> 03:10:28,000
captivated from the

4393
03:10:26,560 --> 03:10:30,960
from the very beginning I've been

4394
03:10:28,000 --> 03:10:34,319
captivated by ads. There's a Google

4395
03:10:30,960 --> 03:10:37,359
there's an ad for Google Chrome

4396
03:10:34,319 --> 03:10:40,800
where a father is emailing with his

4397
03:10:37,359 --> 03:10:43,040
daughter and it's 30 seconds long. Let's

4398
03:10:40,800 --> 03:10:46,560
just be clear. And she's in college.

4399
03:10:43,040 --> 03:10:48,399
she's just left for college and he's now

4400
03:10:46,560 --> 03:10:50,640
he's like missing her and she's missing

4401
03:10:48,399 --> 03:10:54,399
him and they're emailing back and forth

4402
03:10:50,640 --> 03:10:59,120
and then you become aware that his her

4403
03:10:54,399 --> 03:11:00,960
mother his wife um has died just

4404
03:10:59,120 --> 03:11:02,720
recently because they start talking

4405
03:11:00,960 --> 03:11:07,840
about oh I miss mom and he goes I miss

4406
03:11:02,720 --> 03:11:09,520
mom and it's an ad for email and while

4407
03:11:07,840 --> 03:11:13,920
they're talking while they're emailing

4408
03:11:09,520 --> 03:11:17,840
about their mother his her mother his

4409
03:11:13,920 --> 03:11:19,520
there. The keystrokes slow down

4410
03:11:17,840 --> 03:11:22,800
and

4411
03:11:19,520 --> 03:11:24,960
you know it's emotional bananas. I mean

4412
03:11:22,800 --> 03:11:26,640
it's like you're in tears. I mean of

4413
03:11:24,960 --> 03:11:30,000
course you are. You have no choice. It's

4414
03:11:26,640 --> 03:11:34,479
kind of wrenches your heart out in 30

4415
03:11:30,000 --> 03:11:37,920
seconds, right? Like how can you not

4416
03:11:34,479 --> 03:11:40,080
think that is the most incredible thing?

4417
03:11:37,920 --> 03:11:42,479
I mean that you can do that that you can

4418
03:11:40,080 --> 03:11:44,000
take someone from

4419
03:11:42,479 --> 03:11:46,960
um

4420
03:11:44,000 --> 03:11:49,120
from ambivalence, not even ambivalence,

4421
03:11:46,960 --> 03:11:53,680
from hostility. Nobody wants to watch an

4422
03:11:49,120 --> 03:11:56,880
ad to tears in 30 seconds. My hat is off

4423
03:11:53,680 --> 03:12:00,160
to that. I was walking down

4424
03:11:56,880 --> 03:12:01,760
uh some street in LA once and some guy

4425
03:12:00,160 --> 03:12:03,920
stopped. I was chatting to some guy who

4426
03:12:01,760 --> 03:12:05,680
was in advertising and I was like I was

4427
03:12:03,920 --> 03:12:07,120
like when I meet people like that it's

4428
03:12:05,680 --> 03:12:08,560
like what's your favorite ad? He's like,

4429
03:12:07,120 --> 03:12:10,800
"Oh, that Google Chrome ad." He's like,

4430
03:12:08,560 --> 03:12:13,359
"We all we're all obsessed with it." A

4431
03:12:10,800 --> 03:12:15,279
title is another example of time

4432
03:12:13,359 --> 03:12:18,720
constrained communication. And that is

4433
03:12:15,279 --> 03:12:23,800
something that I am um

4434
03:12:18,720 --> 03:12:23,800
uh I am passionately interested in.

4435
03:12:33,439 --> 03:12:38,160
To me the most important thing is what

4436
03:12:35,040 --> 03:12:40,960
is your expectation as a writer for how

4437
03:12:38,160 --> 03:12:42,640
much you can write and my I think it's

4438
03:12:40,960 --> 03:12:45,439
very important to set a realistic

4439
03:12:42,640 --> 03:12:47,600
expectation. So the feeling of failure

4440
03:12:45,439 --> 03:12:49,840
that writers sometimes have is very

4441
03:12:47,600 --> 03:12:51,680
often caused by the fact they have too

4442
03:12:49,840 --> 03:12:54,720
high an expectation for how much they

4443
03:12:51,680 --> 03:12:58,640
can produce in a given day or given

4444
03:12:54,720 --> 03:13:01,040
sitting or they'll say, "Oh, I only did

4445
03:12:58,640 --> 03:13:02,960
two paragraphs today." And they'll feel

4446
03:13:01,040 --> 03:13:04,160
like a failure and it'll cause anxiety

4447
03:13:02,960 --> 03:13:06,319
and they won't sleep and the next day

4448
03:13:04,160 --> 03:13:08,000
they'll wake up and they'll, you know,

4449
03:13:06,319 --> 03:13:10,640
be exhausted and full of stress and

4450
03:13:08,000 --> 03:13:13,040
won't be able to write. The truth is you

4451
03:13:10,640 --> 03:13:16,960
can't write a lot in a day.

4452
03:13:13,040 --> 03:13:20,399
You can't. It's demanding creative work.

4453
03:13:16,960 --> 03:13:24,560
It It's demand. It's physically

4454
03:13:20,399 --> 03:13:29,439
strenuous. It's uh mentally strenuous.

4455
03:13:24,560 --> 03:13:32,640
It wears you out. It you know it it may

4456
03:13:29,439 --> 03:13:37,040
take I often find myself mulling over

4457
03:13:32,640 --> 03:13:40,000
something just in my head for 10 times

4458
03:13:37,040 --> 03:13:43,520
longer than it than I would actually

4459
03:13:40,000 --> 03:13:45,840
spend writing that section. So it's uh

4460
03:13:43,520 --> 03:13:48,479
so I think if I a productive day for me

4461
03:13:45,840 --> 03:13:50,000
is a day where you know if I have a good

4462
03:13:48,479 --> 03:13:53,760
page

4463
03:13:50,000 --> 03:13:57,520
I'm delighted that's you know a book is

4464
03:13:53,760 --> 03:14:00,399
if a book is 300 pages and I do a good

4465
03:13:57,520 --> 03:14:03,279
page in a day that suggests I can do a

4466
03:14:00,399 --> 03:14:05,279
book in a reasonable period of time

4467
03:14:03,279 --> 03:14:07,520
that's a lot actually but there are some

4468
03:14:05,279 --> 03:14:09,200
writers who if I told what is a page

4469
03:14:07,520 --> 03:14:11,120
three and a half paragraphs four

4470
03:14:09,200 --> 03:14:13,600
paragraphs some writers would say if I

4471
03:14:11,120 --> 03:14:16,720
only four paragraphs in a day, I've I've

4472
03:14:13,600 --> 03:14:20,239
failed. I think that's again, you've set

4473
03:14:16,720 --> 03:14:22,960
yourself up for for disappointment. Um,

4474
03:14:20,239 --> 03:14:26,239
if you raise the bar that high, a few

4475
03:14:22,960 --> 03:14:28,479
good paragraphs represent a substantial

4476
03:14:26,239 --> 03:14:31,120
achievement. Um, so once you think about

4477
03:14:28,479 --> 03:14:35,279
it that way, you think, well, when I

4478
03:14:31,120 --> 03:14:37,600
think about it, I think I can if I'm if

4479
03:14:35,279 --> 03:14:40,319
I work first, if I get up in the morning

4480
03:14:37,600 --> 03:14:41,920
and do my writing when my mind is fresh,

4481
03:14:40,319 --> 03:14:45,120
I should be able to accomplish what I

4482
03:14:41,920 --> 03:14:48,080
need to accomplish by lunchtime.

4483
03:14:45,120 --> 03:14:51,520
So, I work in the mornings and I rarely

4484
03:14:48,080 --> 03:14:52,880
do anything of of creative value. In the

4485
03:14:51,520 --> 03:14:54,880
afternoon, I organize my life and

4486
03:14:52,880 --> 03:14:58,720
organize the next days, do my reporting

4487
03:14:54,880 --> 03:15:01,040
and all those kinds of things. But uh

4488
03:14:58,720 --> 03:15:03,920
the morning is if I can do a couple of

4489
03:15:01,040 --> 03:15:05,840
good hours in the morning then I'm then

4490
03:15:03,920 --> 03:15:07,680
I'm I feel like I have moved the bar

4491
03:15:05,840 --> 03:15:10,680
that day. Moved the ball that day

4492
03:15:07,680 --> 03:15:10,680
rather.

4493
03:15:14,479 --> 03:15:18,960
The perfect is the enemy of the good is

4494
03:15:16,479 --> 03:15:22,160
one of the most important

4495
03:15:18,960 --> 03:15:23,920
apherisms that I repeat to myself. So if

4496
03:15:22,160 --> 03:15:25,439
you're trying to produce the perfect

4497
03:15:23,920 --> 03:15:28,479
piece,

4498
03:15:25,439 --> 03:15:32,239
you'll never produce it. So you have to

4499
03:15:28,479 --> 03:15:33,840
accept the fact that your first couple

4500
03:15:32,239 --> 03:15:36,640
of drafts are going to be bad. They're

4501
03:15:33,840 --> 03:15:38,000
always bad. By definition, they're bad.

4502
03:15:36,640 --> 03:15:39,359
You don't know what you're doing yet.

4503
03:15:38,000 --> 03:15:40,880
But it's very, very important to go

4504
03:15:39,359 --> 03:15:45,200
through the stage of just getting things

4505
03:15:40,880 --> 03:15:47,439
on the page. And also the act of

4506
03:15:45,200 --> 03:15:49,760
explaining your argument or make or

4507
03:15:47,439 --> 03:15:52,880
telling your story is how the story

4508
03:15:49,760 --> 03:15:56,800
emerges. You figure out how to tell the

4509
03:15:52,880 --> 03:15:59,120
story as you tell it necessarily, right?

4510
03:15:56,800 --> 03:16:01,680
You're responding to

4511
03:15:59,120 --> 03:16:03,200
pieces that you think will work don't

4512
03:16:01,680 --> 03:16:05,040
together don't work together or pieces

4513
03:16:03,200 --> 03:16:07,200
you don't think won't work together do

4514
03:16:05,040 --> 03:16:09,279
you know unexpectedly or you find ways

4515
03:16:07,200 --> 03:16:12,560
to link things just in the moment as

4516
03:16:09,279 --> 03:16:14,960
you're writing. So you have to trust

4517
03:16:12,560 --> 03:16:16,880
that process and just get things down

4518
03:16:14,960 --> 03:16:18,960
on. So when when I start I'm just

4519
03:16:16,880 --> 03:16:21,120
getting things down on the page and I'm

4520
03:16:18,960 --> 03:16:22,560
I have big gaps or if I have problems I

4521
03:16:21,120 --> 03:16:24,640
can't resolve I just don't resolve them.

4522
03:16:22,560 --> 03:16:27,040
I just have

4523
03:16:24,640 --> 03:16:28,399
you know I'll have a section of a

4524
03:16:27,040 --> 03:16:30,239
chapter of a book or something and I'll

4525
03:16:28,399 --> 03:16:32,160
just have the two versions. I'll just

4526
03:16:30,239 --> 03:16:36,479
stick them in there and leave them keep

4527
03:16:32,160 --> 03:16:38,399
going. Um, the next time round I'll

4528
03:16:36,479 --> 03:16:40,319
decide which one works and get then the

4529
03:16:38,399 --> 03:16:43,359
next time round I'll do another. I might

4530
03:16:40,319 --> 03:16:45,359
go through it countless times, dozens of

4531
03:16:43,359 --> 03:16:47,760
times sometimes. Each time doing

4532
03:16:45,359 --> 03:16:51,200
something different to it and each time

4533
03:16:47,760 --> 03:16:52,399
stopping well before I'm finished,

4534
03:16:51,200 --> 03:16:53,760
just so I don't I don't want to get

4535
03:16:52,399 --> 03:16:55,840
bogged down. I don't want to get sick of

4536
03:16:53,760 --> 03:16:59,279
it. I want it to be I want to keep

4537
03:16:55,840 --> 03:17:01,120
coming back to it fresh. Um,

4538
03:16:59,279 --> 03:17:03,680
so one of the things I'm puzzling now as

4539
03:17:01,120 --> 03:17:06,160
I'm writing my book is uh

4540
03:17:03,680 --> 03:17:08,239
there's just an there's an argument

4541
03:17:06,160 --> 03:17:12,080
particular point I want to make. Does it

4542
03:17:08,239 --> 03:17:15,439
belong? Is it the end of an existing

4543
03:17:12,080 --> 03:17:19,040
chapter or a chapter of its own? Super

4544
03:17:15,439 --> 03:17:20,800
simple boring writer's question. Turns

4545
03:17:19,040 --> 03:17:23,279
out in terms of organizing the book

4546
03:17:20,800 --> 03:17:25,760
that's a big it's a big deal

4547
03:17:23,279 --> 03:17:28,399
and I can't decide right now and I won't

4548
03:17:25,760 --> 03:17:30,000
decide. I'll decide

4549
03:17:28,399 --> 03:17:31,840
maybe in January I'll decide I don't

4550
03:17:30,000 --> 03:17:33,359
know February months from now. I mean

4551
03:17:31,840 --> 03:17:35,920
there's no reason to do it now. Book's

4552
03:17:33,359 --> 03:17:36,800
not due right away. Just leave it. Come

4553
03:17:35,920 --> 03:17:38,000
back to it. I know what I'm going to

4554
03:17:36,800 --> 03:17:41,200
say. I could figure out what I'm going

4555
03:17:38,000 --> 03:17:43,279
to say and write it even and just leave

4556
03:17:41,200 --> 03:17:45,439
it as the end of a paragraph as the end

4557
03:17:43,279 --> 03:17:49,600
of one chapter and maybe I'll yank it

4558
03:17:45,439 --> 03:17:53,200
out later. Um but this uh I said the

4559
03:17:49,600 --> 03:17:55,200
good enough is fine for now. Um, and if

4560
03:17:53,200 --> 03:17:56,880
I'm trying to be perfect in the moment,

4561
03:17:55,200 --> 03:17:59,880
I'll I'll be stuck on this chapter

4562
03:17:56,880 --> 03:17:59,880
forever.

4563
03:18:03,920 --> 03:18:09,359
So, I have changed the way I do writing

4564
03:18:06,560 --> 03:18:12,800
and reporting in recent years. And what

4565
03:18:09,359 --> 03:18:15,920
I do now is precisely because there is

4566
03:18:12,800 --> 03:18:19,520
this problem of an almost infinite

4567
03:18:15,920 --> 03:18:21,840
number of sources or infinite number of

4568
03:18:19,520 --> 03:18:24,560
of uh in infinite number of books to

4569
03:18:21,840 --> 03:18:26,560
read and people to talk to. I write as I

4570
03:18:24,560 --> 03:18:29,200
go along.

4571
03:18:26,560 --> 03:18:30,960
So I will I'm thinking of this right now

4572
03:18:29,200 --> 03:18:36,720
with a chapter I'm writing for my new

4573
03:18:30,960 --> 03:18:38,640
book. Um that there was a group of

4574
03:18:36,720 --> 03:18:40,560
I should talked about this earlier. the

4575
03:18:38,640 --> 03:18:43,200
criminologists.

4576
03:18:40,560 --> 03:18:45,520
It was a group of criminologists and I

4577
03:18:43,200 --> 03:18:48,640
began with the first one. I began with

4578
03:18:45,520 --> 03:18:52,000
Larry and then I moved to David and then

4579
03:18:48,640 --> 03:18:54,160
I went to Ron. After I talked to Larry,

4580
03:18:52,000 --> 03:18:57,200
I wrote up

4581
03:18:54,160 --> 03:18:59,760
I wrote a part of the chapter as seen

4582
03:18:57,200 --> 03:19:01,920
through Larry's eyes as Larry would the

4583
03:18:59,760 --> 03:19:04,479
way Larry would argue things and see the

4584
03:19:01,920 --> 03:19:08,319
world. Then I talked to Larry's

4585
03:19:04,479 --> 03:19:09,840
collaborator, David. And David and Larry

4586
03:19:08,319 --> 03:19:11,200
are good friends, but David sees the

4587
03:19:09,840 --> 03:19:14,160
world slightly differently. So I went

4588
03:19:11,200 --> 03:19:17,120
back and I revised the chapter.

4589
03:19:14,160 --> 03:19:20,720
This time, David plus Larry.

4590
03:19:17,120 --> 03:19:23,520
And then I talked to Ron. And I right

4591
03:19:20,720 --> 03:19:25,200
now I'm writing Ron plus David plus

4592
03:19:23,520 --> 03:19:27,680
Larry. Now what's the virtue of doing it

4593
03:19:25,200 --> 03:19:30,239
that way? The virtue is what I used to

4594
03:19:27,680 --> 03:19:32,319
do is I'd talk to Larry, I'd talk to

4595
03:19:30,239 --> 03:19:34,720
David, and then I'd talk to Ron last.

4596
03:19:32,319 --> 03:19:38,000
And because Ron got to me last, Ron

4597
03:19:34,720 --> 03:19:39,920
always won. Or I would do it that I

4598
03:19:38,000 --> 03:19:43,120
would talk to Ron and David and Larry.

4599
03:19:39,920 --> 03:19:45,680
And Larry was really dry. David was

4600
03:19:43,120 --> 03:19:46,800
incredibly charismatic and Ron I could

4601
03:19:45,680 --> 03:19:48,399
only talk to on the phone. I couldn't

4602
03:19:46,800 --> 03:19:50,319
meet him and we had limited amount of

4603
03:19:48,399 --> 03:19:52,239
time. So I was like, so what happens

4604
03:19:50,319 --> 03:19:55,520
there is it's all about David because

4605
03:19:52,239 --> 03:19:59,680
he's the one who's amazing and whatever.

4606
03:19:55,520 --> 03:20:01,600
This way everyone I talk to gets almost

4607
03:19:59,680 --> 03:20:05,760
their own hearing. Do you know what I

4608
03:20:01,600 --> 03:20:07,840
mean? So I I feel I'm much truer to

4609
03:20:05,760 --> 03:20:10,560
because you're a human being when you do

4610
03:20:07,840 --> 03:20:14,080
research. You're you're drawn towards

4611
03:20:10,560 --> 03:20:16,560
the person who is the most compelling,

4612
03:20:14,080 --> 03:20:18,560
most unexpected, who you had the best

4613
03:20:16,560 --> 03:20:20,880
chemistry with. I mean, there's no

4614
03:20:18,560 --> 03:20:22,399
you're not you don't behave differently

4615
03:20:20,880 --> 03:20:24,319
when you're working as you do in real

4616
03:20:22,399 --> 03:20:26,880
life. In real life, you're the same way.

4617
03:20:24,319 --> 03:20:28,720
So, you have to kind of guard against

4618
03:20:26,880 --> 03:20:30,640
that bias because the most compelling

4619
03:20:28,720 --> 03:20:32,399
and charismatic people are not always

4620
03:20:30,640 --> 03:20:35,359
the ones who are the most useful or

4621
03:20:32,399 --> 03:20:38,080
interesting or important. So, by letting

4622
03:20:35,359 --> 03:20:41,120
everyone by committing everyone's ideas

4623
03:20:38,080 --> 03:20:43,439
to paper right after I've talked to them

4624
03:20:41,120 --> 03:20:46,399
and by fashioning the narrative in their

4625
03:20:43,439 --> 03:20:49,840
eyes and then adapting it later, I think

4626
03:20:46,399 --> 03:20:54,640
I do a better job of of correcting for

4627
03:20:49,840 --> 03:20:57,600
that bias. Um, so in this case, I talked

4628
03:20:54,640 --> 03:21:00,000
to David for hours

4629
03:20:57,600 --> 03:21:02,000
in person.

4630
03:21:00,000 --> 03:21:05,040
Larry briefly, but I knew him from

4631
03:21:02,000 --> 03:21:06,800
before. Ron on the phone, but it was so

4632
03:21:05,040 --> 03:21:09,840
good. I'm gonna go and see him. So, it's

4633
03:21:06,800 --> 03:21:11,359
all these are very different ways of one

4634
03:21:09,840 --> 03:21:13,680
person I'd known for a while, one person

4635
03:21:11,359 --> 03:21:15,760
was a revelation and it was like blew my

4636
03:21:13,680 --> 03:21:18,080
mind and one person I was like tentative

4637
03:21:15,760 --> 03:21:20,080
about and then I was like, "Oh, wait a

4638
03:21:18,080 --> 03:21:22,080
minute. I thought about it. That's

4639
03:21:20,080 --> 03:21:24,800
fantastic. I'll go and see him again."

4640
03:21:22,080 --> 03:21:27,600
So there's, you know, there's each of

4641
03:21:24,800 --> 03:21:29,920
that is a different sort of emotional

4642
03:21:27,600 --> 03:21:32,000
connection, a different sort of

4643
03:21:29,920 --> 03:21:34,479
relationship, and you have to make sure

4644
03:21:32,000 --> 03:21:37,520
that you manage those very different

4645
03:21:34,479 --> 03:21:40,520
relationships um in a fair and equal

4646
03:21:37,520 --> 03:21:40,520
way.

4647
03:21:44,880 --> 03:21:51,040
One of the mistakes I think writers make

4648
03:21:48,239 --> 03:21:53,359
is they spend a lot of time thinking

4649
03:21:51,040 --> 03:21:56,080
about how to start their stories and not

4650
03:21:53,359 --> 03:21:59,279
a lot of time thinking about how to end

4651
03:21:56,080 --> 03:22:01,200
them. Now, that makes sense because you

4652
03:21:59,279 --> 03:22:03,120
invariably spend far more time on the

4653
03:22:01,200 --> 03:22:05,520
beginning than you do on the end. then

4654
03:22:03,120 --> 03:22:08,239
the beginning may be a lot harder than

4655
03:22:05,520 --> 03:22:10,319
the end because you're trying to

4656
03:22:08,239 --> 03:22:11,920
understand how to introduce a huge

4657
03:22:10,319 --> 03:22:13,520
topic.

4658
03:22:11,920 --> 03:22:15,279
But I do think that sometimes it's

4659
03:22:13,520 --> 03:22:16,960
enormously

4660
03:22:15,279 --> 03:22:19,279
clarifying

4661
03:22:16,960 --> 03:22:21,760
to figure out how you want to end it and

4662
03:22:19,279 --> 03:22:25,120
work backwards. And I once did a moth

4663
03:22:21,760 --> 03:22:28,399
story about a wedding that I once

4664
03:22:25,120 --> 03:22:32,000
attended where um a number of friends

4665
03:22:28,399 --> 03:22:34,960
and I sang a song. Um, we were all

4666
03:22:32,000 --> 03:22:37,760
friends of the groom and the song which

4667
03:22:34,960 --> 03:22:40,800
was supposed to be funny went terribly

4668
03:22:37,760 --> 03:22:42,880
arry and in fact no one laughed except

4669
03:22:40,800 --> 03:22:44,319
for us and the wedding collapsed in a

4670
03:22:42,880 --> 03:22:46,880
disaster and we were kicked out. I mean

4671
03:22:44,319 --> 03:22:49,040
it was just as much of a nightmare

4672
03:22:46,880 --> 03:22:52,080
there.

4673
03:22:49,040 --> 03:22:54,160
It was clear from the beginning what the

4674
03:22:52,080 --> 03:22:57,680
ending should be. I began with the

4675
03:22:54,160 --> 03:23:00,399
ending. The ending is the song.

4676
03:22:57,680 --> 03:23:04,800
What is this man?

4677
03:23:00,399 --> 03:23:09,680
What has he got? A shelf of bricks, a

4678
03:23:04,800 --> 03:23:14,160
squeaky cot. She pays the bills.

4679
03:23:09,680 --> 03:23:17,359
He sits and rots. She has her doctorate

4680
03:23:14,160 --> 03:23:21,600
and he has not.

4681
03:23:17,359 --> 03:23:24,640
He's on a leash. He's made his peace.

4682
03:23:21,600 --> 03:23:27,640
He'll do it her

4683
03:23:24,640 --> 03:23:27,640
way.

4684
03:23:29,279 --> 03:23:33,520
The minute you've

4685
03:23:31,439 --> 03:23:36,399
sung the song

4686
03:23:33,520 --> 03:23:38,800
and provided final proof of why this

4687
03:23:36,399 --> 03:23:42,399
wedding went so disastrously arai, your

4688
03:23:38,800 --> 03:23:44,800
story is over, right? I mean, maybe not

4689
03:23:42,399 --> 03:23:47,120
over in that moment with the final line

4690
03:23:44,800 --> 03:23:50,399
of the song, but it has to end really

4691
03:23:47,120 --> 03:23:52,800
soon because that's where everyone's

4692
03:23:50,399 --> 03:23:55,520
gasping, laughing, horrified, whatever.

4693
03:23:52,800 --> 03:23:58,800
The maximum emotional response is when

4694
03:23:55,520 --> 03:24:00,720
you have recreated in the audience the

4695
03:23:58,800 --> 03:24:03,359
feeling of the audience in the wedding.

4696
03:24:00,720 --> 03:24:05,680
They're like, "Oh my god, that's

4697
03:24:03,359 --> 03:24:07,279
outrageous." And, "Oh my god, how

4698
03:24:05,680 --> 03:24:10,080
outrageous would it be if this was my

4699
03:24:07,279 --> 03:24:13,520
own wedding?" Right? So, you have that

4700
03:24:10,080 --> 03:24:15,359
totally powerful moment. And if you have

4701
03:24:13,520 --> 03:24:18,000
a powerful moment, you never want it to

4702
03:24:15,359 --> 03:24:20,960
dissipate.

4703
03:24:18,000 --> 03:24:22,960
Why waste it? That's boom. That's your

4704
03:24:20,960 --> 03:24:25,680
ending, right?

4705
03:24:22,960 --> 03:24:28,399
So then the when it came time to write

4706
03:24:25,680 --> 03:24:31,040
that story for the moth,

4707
03:24:28,399 --> 03:24:33,439
I knew that it had to it ended with the

4708
03:24:31,040 --> 03:24:35,840
final note or very close to the final

4709
03:24:33,439 --> 03:24:39,279
note of the song, the issue was what

4710
03:24:35,840 --> 03:24:41,520
came before. So then I worked backwards.

4711
03:24:39,279 --> 03:24:45,520
So what do you need to know in reverse

4712
03:24:41,520 --> 03:24:48,399
order to make sense of that song? So

4713
03:24:45,520 --> 03:24:50,239
what information do I want to withhold?

4714
03:24:48,399 --> 03:24:53,600
what information

4715
03:24:50,239 --> 03:24:56,080
you know you what makes the now that I

4716
03:24:53,600 --> 03:24:59,600
know what my ending is what will

4717
03:24:56,080 --> 03:25:02,160
maximize audience surprise and suspense

4718
03:24:59,600 --> 03:25:06,560
in listening other ways where I can

4719
03:25:02,160 --> 03:25:09,279
divert my audience so one of the crucial

4720
03:25:06,560 --> 03:25:13,200
things I realized when I ended with the

4721
03:25:09,279 --> 03:25:14,800
song was that the audience is expecting

4722
03:25:13,200 --> 03:25:18,080
me

4723
03:25:14,800 --> 03:25:19,600
to be apologetic about ruining my best

4724
03:25:18,080 --> 03:25:21,520
friend's wedding. He wasn't actually my

4725
03:25:19,600 --> 03:25:22,880
best friend, but I pretended he was.

4726
03:25:21,520 --> 03:25:24,960
They're waiting for that moment of

4727
03:25:22,880 --> 03:25:27,600
remorse. So, I thought the funny thing

4728
03:25:24,960 --> 03:25:30,239
here is never give them the remorse.

4729
03:25:27,600 --> 03:25:31,920
That the reason it's funny to end on the

4730
03:25:30,239 --> 03:25:34,319
song is they're waiting for me to say,

4731
03:25:31,920 --> 03:25:35,680
"And it was and I've never recovered. It

4732
03:25:34,319 --> 03:25:38,720
was the saddest. It was the dumbest

4733
03:25:35,680 --> 03:25:40,080
thing. I every day I I say to myself,

4734
03:25:38,720 --> 03:25:43,359
"How could I have done this to my best

4735
03:25:40,080 --> 03:25:44,880
friend?" No, don't say that. They want

4736
03:25:43,359 --> 03:25:47,200
to hear that. Don't give it to them.

4737
03:25:44,880 --> 03:25:50,000
That's even funnier, right? So, you

4738
03:25:47,200 --> 03:25:51,680
know, knowing where you're going to end

4739
03:25:50,000 --> 03:25:54,319
sets up the whole story in your mind.

4740
03:25:51,680 --> 03:25:57,200
You're like, "Okay, I'm going to create

4741
03:25:54,319 --> 03:25:58,880
an expectation of remorse and never give

4742
03:25:57,200 --> 03:26:00,960
it to them." That's crucial, right?

4743
03:25:58,880 --> 03:26:03,040
That's what's sort of additionally kind

4744
03:26:00,960 --> 03:26:05,359
of captivating about the story. So, I

4745
03:26:03,040 --> 03:26:07,520
have to kind of the trick is to set all

4746
03:26:05,359 --> 03:26:12,160
that up. Now, how do you do that? Well,

4747
03:26:07,520 --> 03:26:15,120
since you know the song is so absurd and

4748
03:26:12,160 --> 03:26:17,200
over the top and disastrous, then you

4749
03:26:15,120 --> 03:26:20,319
want to have the opposite in the setup.

4750
03:26:17,200 --> 03:26:24,160
So now I know that oh, the setup has got

4751
03:26:20,319 --> 03:26:29,359
to be as flat and

4752
03:26:24,160 --> 03:26:30,880
uh undramatic and matterof fact and

4753
03:26:29,359 --> 03:26:34,000
dispassionate

4754
03:26:30,880 --> 03:26:36,880
and it has to hint that I am what I'm

4755
03:26:34,000 --> 03:26:39,600
about to tell you. I have ever since

4756
03:26:36,880 --> 03:26:42,880
been deeply saddened by. This is Malcolm

4757
03:26:39,600 --> 03:26:47,520
at his worst worst. That's what I need

4758
03:26:42,880 --> 03:26:50,640
to plant in the mind of the listener so

4759
03:26:47,520 --> 03:26:53,840
that when Malcolm delivers Malcolm at

4760
03:26:50,640 --> 03:26:56,560
his worst and is gleeful about it,

4761
03:26:53,840 --> 03:26:59,040
right, you're like, that's, you know,

4762
03:26:56,560 --> 03:27:01,600
that punches you in the stomach.

4763
03:26:59,040 --> 03:27:04,080
So knowing, it's a good example of how

4764
03:27:01,600 --> 03:27:05,840
knowing my ending makes the beginning

4765
03:27:04,080 --> 03:27:08,080
super easy.

4766
03:27:05,840 --> 03:27:11,600
Many years ago, I ruined a beautiful

4767
03:27:08,080 --> 03:27:13,760
friendship. And it was over a song,

4768
03:27:11,600 --> 03:27:15,920
which sounds like a strange thing to

4769
03:27:13,760 --> 03:27:18,640
ruin a friendship over. Um, and what

4770
03:27:15,920 --> 03:27:21,520
makes it even stranger is that the song

4771
03:27:18,640 --> 03:27:24,640
was sung with the utmost love and

4772
03:27:21,520 --> 03:27:27,200
affection. So that I would that whenever

4773
03:27:24,640 --> 03:27:28,640
you can begin at the end and work

4774
03:27:27,200 --> 03:27:32,920
backwards, I think that that can make

4775
03:27:28,640 --> 03:27:32,920
your life as a storyteller much easier.

4776
03:27:37,359 --> 03:27:43,200
I never react to being stuck by

4777
03:27:39,600 --> 03:27:47,359
stopping. I react to being stuck by

4778
03:27:43,200 --> 03:27:52,080
either I jump ahead or I redo something

4779
03:27:47,359 --> 03:27:53,840
or I uh uh or I'll a lot of times I'll

4780
03:27:52,080 --> 03:27:56,080
write little pieces of an article

4781
03:27:53,840 --> 03:27:57,439
without knowing where they fit. I just

4782
03:27:56,080 --> 03:27:59,680
the import the important thing is just

4783
03:27:57,439 --> 03:28:02,319
to keep going and because a lot of

4784
03:27:59,680 --> 03:28:04,560
problems are resolved in the doing. So

4785
03:28:02,319 --> 03:28:06,479
you can't The reason you get stuck I

4786
03:28:04,560 --> 03:28:08,560
think in writer's block is that you're

4787
03:28:06,479 --> 03:28:11,840
trying to imagine how to solve the

4788
03:28:08,560 --> 03:28:13,359
problem at hand in your head. Um trying

4789
03:28:11,840 --> 03:28:15,120
to work it all out and then put it down

4790
03:28:13,359 --> 03:28:17,359
on paper as opposed to understanding

4791
03:28:15,120 --> 03:28:20,720
that no put it down on paper and it will

4792
03:28:17,359 --> 03:28:23,920
invariably work itself out. Um and so I

4793
03:28:20,720 --> 03:28:25,520
think it's that is avoiding that kind of

4794
03:28:23,920 --> 03:28:27,359
and this has been a constant theme I

4795
03:28:25,520 --> 03:28:29,439
realized throughout this conversation

4796
03:28:27,359 --> 03:28:32,560
that the task of the successful writer

4797
03:28:29,439 --> 03:28:36,720
is to lower the bar. You want to avoid

4798
03:28:32,560 --> 03:28:38,960
areas of high difficulty. So a high

4799
03:28:36,720 --> 03:28:41,520
difficulty task is having your story in

4800
03:28:38,960 --> 03:28:43,120
your head before you write it. That's

4801
03:28:41,520 --> 03:28:45,200
too hard to do. You got to be really

4802
03:28:43,120 --> 03:28:46,640
smart to do that. I'm not smart enough.

4803
03:28:45,200 --> 03:28:49,279
So why would I put that myself in that

4804
03:28:46,640 --> 03:28:51,040
position? Just start writing and then

4805
03:28:49,279 --> 03:28:52,960
work it out on and you can always

4806
03:28:51,040 --> 03:28:54,399
rewrite it. You can change it. You

4807
03:28:52,960 --> 03:28:56,399
that's the great luxury of being a

4808
03:28:54,399 --> 03:28:58,560
writer that you're not you're not we're

4809
03:28:56,399 --> 03:29:01,040
not surgeons, you know. The world does

4810
03:28:58,560 --> 03:29:03,520
not hold us to our first pass. You know,

4811
03:29:01,040 --> 03:29:05,520
if we botch the heart, if we kill the

4812
03:29:03,520 --> 03:29:08,239
heart patient, we just get to operate

4813
03:29:05,520 --> 03:29:10,880
again 10 times before we get the

4814
03:29:08,239 --> 03:29:13,760
operation right. So, make use of that

4815
03:29:10,880 --> 03:29:18,040
extraordinary freedom and just get stuff

4816
03:29:13,760 --> 03:29:18,040
down and come back to it.

4817
03:29:21,680 --> 03:29:27,359
It is invariably the case that anyone

4818
03:29:23,680 --> 03:29:28,800
writing anything of any length or value

4819
03:29:27,359 --> 03:29:30,239
uh as you approach the end of the

4820
03:29:28,800 --> 03:29:32,399
process, you will lose all perspective

4821
03:29:30,239 --> 03:29:33,760
on what you've done. Right? You no

4822
03:29:32,399 --> 03:29:36,239
longer know it anymore. You're too close

4823
03:29:33,760 --> 03:29:40,160
to it. You don't see the flaws in it.

4824
03:29:36,239 --> 03:29:42,560
Um, which is why I always tell the

4825
03:29:40,160 --> 03:29:44,640
number one piece of advice I give people

4826
03:29:42,560 --> 03:29:48,000
who are writing something is that as

4827
03:29:44,640 --> 03:29:49,439
they approach the end, if they can, they

4828
03:29:48,000 --> 03:29:52,640
should put whatever they're writing

4829
03:29:49,439 --> 03:29:55,359
aside, walk away and don't think or look

4830
03:29:52,640 --> 03:29:57,439
at it for as long as possible.

4831
03:29:55,359 --> 03:30:00,720
If in a perfect world it would be weeks

4832
03:29:57,439 --> 03:30:02,640
or months. Um, and when they return to

4833
03:30:00,720 --> 03:30:05,439
it, they'll see it in an entirely new

4834
03:30:02,640 --> 03:30:07,760
way. Perspective is your friend. And the

4835
03:30:05,439 --> 03:30:09,359
only way to gain perspective is time. So

4836
03:30:07,760 --> 03:30:12,720
I when I'm writing my books, what I'll

4837
03:30:09,359 --> 03:30:14,479
do is I'll do draft a rough draft of a

4838
03:30:12,720 --> 03:30:17,279
chapter, rough draft of a chapter, rough

4839
03:30:14,479 --> 03:30:19,200
draft of a chapter, put it all aside, do

4840
03:30:17,279 --> 03:30:23,120
something else, come back months later

4841
03:30:19,200 --> 03:30:25,359
and reread them. And I can sit

4842
03:30:23,120 --> 03:30:26,640
and read something if I've read reading

4843
03:30:25,359 --> 03:30:28,880
it for the first time in three months

4844
03:30:26,640 --> 03:30:31,359
and know instantly what's wrong with it

4845
03:30:28,880 --> 03:30:33,120
just because now I'm reading it like a

4846
03:30:31,359 --> 03:30:35,760
critic would, right? It's not even my

4847
03:30:33,120 --> 03:30:37,600
work anymore. was done by some guy I

4848
03:30:35,760 --> 03:30:39,840
barely remember, three-month-old

4849
03:30:37,600 --> 03:30:42,160
Malcolm. Three months ago, Malcolm. Um,

4850
03:30:39,840 --> 03:30:44,080
and that's you can't do that when you

4851
03:30:42,160 --> 03:30:48,760
were when you're reading the work that

4852
03:30:44,080 --> 03:30:48,760
you just were writing yesterday.

4853
03:30:52,880 --> 03:30:58,239
One of the first serious books I ever

4854
03:30:54,479 --> 03:31:01,200
read was a uh my mother wrote a memoir

4855
03:30:58,239 --> 03:31:05,920
in in the late60s and I read it as a

4856
03:31:01,200 --> 03:31:09,120
very very young child and was struck

4857
03:31:05,920 --> 03:31:11,200
by how clear it was. It was written the

4858
03:31:09,120 --> 03:31:13,520
I I didn't even begin to grasp the

4859
03:31:11,200 --> 03:31:15,120
content of the book. That was very

4860
03:31:13,520 --> 03:31:18,800
sophisticated. But the way in which it

4861
03:31:15,120 --> 03:31:22,319
was written was was sufficiently simple

4862
03:31:18,800 --> 03:31:26,080
and clear that an 8-year-old could read

4863
03:31:22,319 --> 03:31:28,640
it. And I was kind of amazed

4864
03:31:26,080 --> 03:31:30,319
at how access this was my first adult

4865
03:31:28,640 --> 03:31:31,520
book I'd ever read. And I was like,

4866
03:31:30,319 --> 03:31:33,600
"Wait a minute, this is an adult book

4867
03:31:31,520 --> 03:31:36,720
and yet I can follow along quite

4868
03:31:33,600 --> 03:31:38,560
happily." Um, and that made a very

4869
03:31:36,720 --> 03:31:39,920
powerful impression on me. And

4870
03:31:38,560 --> 03:31:43,680
subsequently, my mother would always

4871
03:31:39,920 --> 03:31:46,880
say, "Your first goal is to be clear and

4872
03:31:43,680 --> 03:31:49,760
simple." That she was a great foe of

4873
03:31:46,880 --> 03:31:54,160
jargon. Um

4874
03:31:49,760 --> 03:31:56,080
and uh that has always been one of my

4875
03:31:54,160 --> 03:32:00,279
um

4876
03:31:56,080 --> 03:32:00,279
to me what the the

4877
03:32:00,640 --> 03:32:04,960
uh process of editing is always about

4878
03:32:03,439 --> 03:32:08,880
simplification.

4879
03:32:04,960 --> 03:32:12,399
It is not about if you are complexifying

4880
03:32:08,880 --> 03:32:14,640
your argument during the re the revising

4881
03:32:12,399 --> 03:32:16,319
process then you're writing in the wrong

4882
03:32:14,640 --> 03:32:17,760
way. Your first draft should be

4883
03:32:16,319 --> 03:32:19,760
complicated and messy. that's what

4884
03:32:17,760 --> 03:32:24,000
they're supposed to be. And then you go

4885
03:32:19,760 --> 03:32:27,840
back and you polish the jewel, get rid

4886
03:32:24,000 --> 03:32:30,399
of all of the impurities. Um, I think

4887
03:32:27,840 --> 03:32:32,720
that's a far better way to approach

4888
03:32:30,399 --> 03:32:34,560
writing than the reverse. Strikes me as

4889
03:32:32,720 --> 03:32:38,720
very hard to add complexity to

4890
03:32:34,560 --> 03:32:41,960
simplicity, but but totally intuitive to

4891
03:32:38,720 --> 03:32:41,960
do the opposite.

4892
03:32:52,239 --> 03:32:55,920
Once you've written something, it no

4893
03:32:53,680 --> 03:32:58,399
longer belongs to you. It belongs to

4894
03:32:55,920 --> 03:33:00,880
your readers. When your readers buy your

4895
03:32:58,399 --> 03:33:05,200
book, they really buy your ideas and

4896
03:33:00,880 --> 03:33:07,439
they're your ideas become theirs. And

4897
03:33:05,200 --> 03:33:10,479
you can waste a lot of time and energy

4898
03:33:07,439 --> 03:33:12,800
worrying about how they use your ideas,

4899
03:33:10,479 --> 03:33:15,359
but you shouldn't because they're not

4900
03:33:12,800 --> 03:33:17,279
yours anymore. So, when I was writing

4901
03:33:15,359 --> 03:33:20,319
Outliers,

4902
03:33:17,279 --> 03:33:23,600
I ran across this bit of research

4903
03:33:20,319 --> 03:33:25,600
about trying to estimate how long

4904
03:33:23,600 --> 03:33:27,920
people have to do something complicated

4905
03:33:25,600 --> 03:33:29,920
before they master it. And this is the

4906
03:33:27,920 --> 03:33:32,080
literature that

4907
03:33:29,920 --> 03:33:34,319
is described as a 10,000 hour literature

4908
03:33:32,080 --> 03:33:36,880
because the notion is that you need to

4909
03:33:34,319 --> 03:33:39,439
have 10,000 hours of deliberate practice

4910
03:33:36,880 --> 03:33:41,600
to be good at something. So I wrote this

4911
03:33:39,439 --> 03:33:44,880
in an article in a chapter of my book

4912
03:33:41,600 --> 03:33:47,120
outliers and thought nothing of it. I

4913
03:33:44,880 --> 03:33:49,279
didn't think it was that significant. It

4914
03:33:47,120 --> 03:33:50,960
was in the in the service of another

4915
03:33:49,279 --> 03:33:54,479
point. I was trying to make the point

4916
03:33:50,960 --> 03:33:57,120
that if it's really that long, then no

4917
03:33:54,479 --> 03:34:01,040
one can do can prepare for something

4918
03:33:57,120 --> 03:34:02,880
hard by themselves. So 10,000 hours is

4919
03:34:01,040 --> 03:34:05,760
takes you 10 years of practice to get up

4920
03:34:02,880 --> 03:34:08,160
to 10,000 hours roughly speaking. So it

4921
03:34:05,760 --> 03:34:10,640
takes you 10 years to be good at

4922
03:34:08,160 --> 03:34:13,439
something. You got to have help.

4923
03:34:10,640 --> 03:34:15,200
Parents, a spouse,

4924
03:34:13,439 --> 03:34:17,359
government, I don't know, somebody's got

4925
03:34:15,200 --> 03:34:20,640
to help you out. You can't do 10 years

4926
03:34:17,359 --> 03:34:24,160
of preparation on your own. Right? That

4927
03:34:20,640 --> 03:34:25,600
was my point. And then I just kind of

4928
03:34:24,160 --> 03:34:28,800
went on with the book and then the book

4929
03:34:25,600 --> 03:34:30,800
comes out and it there was a time when

4930
03:34:28,800 --> 03:34:32,640
it seemed like the only thing not the

4931
03:34:30,800 --> 03:34:35,279
only thing but the chief thing people

4932
03:34:32,640 --> 03:34:37,920
got from the book was that 10,000 hours

4933
03:34:35,279 --> 03:34:41,520
was necessary to be great at something.

4934
03:34:37,920 --> 03:34:44,800
And then as that kind of

4935
03:34:41,520 --> 03:34:46,720
took off, the argument that I made was

4936
03:34:44,800 --> 03:34:50,319
simplified and further simplified and

4937
03:34:46,720 --> 03:34:51,760
then distorted until it came. There was

4938
03:34:50,319 --> 03:34:53,760
a version out there at one point that

4939
03:34:51,760 --> 03:34:56,239
said, "And Gladwell thinks that talent

4940
03:34:53,760 --> 03:34:58,800
is unnecessary for being good. All you

4941
03:34:56,239 --> 03:35:01,600
need to do is to practice 10,000 hours,"

4942
03:34:58,800 --> 03:35:03,359
which is not what I said, even remotely.

4943
03:35:01,600 --> 03:35:06,880
And I had this curious sensation of

4944
03:35:03,359 --> 03:35:09,840
reading people attributing a position to

4945
03:35:06,880 --> 03:35:11,600
me that I'd never taken. Now part of you

4946
03:35:09,840 --> 03:35:14,080
is like

4947
03:35:11,600 --> 03:35:17,520
that's a good problem to have that

4948
03:35:14,080 --> 03:35:19,920
you're w enough in order to be in order

4949
03:35:17,520 --> 03:35:24,080
for your work to be misconstrued your

4950
03:35:19,920 --> 03:35:26,960
work must first be read. So it's better

4951
03:35:24,080 --> 03:35:29,279
than being ignored I suppose. And then I

4952
03:35:26,960 --> 03:35:30,960
got went through a period of where I was

4953
03:35:29,279 --> 03:35:33,840
constantly trying to correct the record

4954
03:35:30,960 --> 03:35:36,239
and say I never said that blah blah. So

4955
03:35:33,840 --> 03:35:38,479
I was irritated by the way. And then I

4956
03:35:36,239 --> 03:35:40,000
realized, well, if you're

4957
03:35:38,479 --> 03:35:41,520
misinterpreted, it's probably your

4958
03:35:40,000 --> 03:35:42,880
fault,

4959
03:35:41,520 --> 03:35:45,439
right? I should have written it more

4960
03:35:42,880 --> 03:35:49,279
clearly. And then ultimately I took the

4961
03:35:45,439 --> 03:35:51,920
position that I am not the police of my

4962
03:35:49,279 --> 03:35:54,399
readers. If my readers would like to

4963
03:35:51,920 --> 03:35:57,680
conrue an idea a certain way, that's

4964
03:35:54,399 --> 03:35:57,680
entirely up to them.

4965
03:36:02,319 --> 03:36:06,800
I wrote my first book called The Tipping

4966
03:36:04,800 --> 03:36:09,439
Point. Uh,

4967
03:36:06,800 --> 03:36:11,840
and I had no expectation that it was

4968
03:36:09,439 --> 03:36:13,439
going to be successful. I was just

4969
03:36:11,840 --> 03:36:15,920
thrilled that someone wanted to publish

4970
03:36:13,439 --> 03:36:18,800
something that I was that I had written.

4971
03:36:15,920 --> 03:36:21,200
I cut my I was at the New Yorker and I

4972
03:36:18,800 --> 03:36:22,479
would write write my book in the morning

4973
03:36:21,200 --> 03:36:23,920
and go into the New Yorker in the

4974
03:36:22,479 --> 03:36:26,160
afternoon.

4975
03:36:23,920 --> 03:36:29,120
I did that for a year until the book was

4976
03:36:26,160 --> 03:36:30,720
done and then I thought nothing of it

4977
03:36:29,120 --> 03:36:33,439
and the book didn't do well in the

4978
03:36:30,720 --> 03:36:37,040
beginning. So I just it was a kind of

4979
03:36:33,439 --> 03:36:39,439
modest success but but I got it in my

4980
03:36:37,040 --> 03:36:41,920
head that if I kept touring and kept

4981
03:36:39,439 --> 03:36:43,680
giving talks about it and kept promoting

4982
03:36:41,920 --> 03:36:45,600
it,

4983
03:36:43,680 --> 03:36:48,160
it might

4984
03:36:45,600 --> 03:36:51,760
revive. And so I just started I

4985
03:36:48,160 --> 03:36:54,160
basically just did endless promotion for

4986
03:36:51,760 --> 03:36:56,399
two years. If you called me up and told

4987
03:36:54,160 --> 03:36:58,960
me to come to some small town in

4988
03:36:56,399 --> 03:37:01,760
Wisconsin and speak at your library, I

4989
03:36:58,960 --> 03:37:05,359
went. You know, that was the mode I was

4990
03:37:01,760 --> 03:37:07,920
in at that point. I was, you know, uh, I

4991
03:37:05,359 --> 03:37:09,760
guess I was ambitious and it paid off.

4992
03:37:07,920 --> 03:37:11,680
The book went back on the bestseller

4993
03:37:09,760 --> 03:37:13,760
list as a paperback and that's when it

4994
03:37:11,680 --> 03:37:16,880
was really a successful book. It's in

4995
03:37:13,760 --> 03:37:18,800
its second iteration. um months, years

4996
03:37:16,880 --> 03:37:20,319
after

4997
03:37:18,800 --> 03:37:22,479
um

4998
03:37:20,319 --> 03:37:26,520
it was it had its greatest success two

4999
03:37:22,479 --> 03:37:26,520
or three years after publication.

5000
03:37:30,720 --> 03:37:35,439
Bad reviews when they're done well, when

5001
03:37:33,760 --> 03:37:39,439
they're done in the right spirit are

5002
03:37:35,439 --> 03:37:41,040
helpful. They're it's feedback and it's

5003
03:37:39,439 --> 03:37:43,840
high level feedback if it's done by

5004
03:37:41,040 --> 03:37:46,080
someone who's knows what they're doing.

5005
03:37:43,840 --> 03:37:49,600
um and they can help you grow as a

5006
03:37:46,080 --> 03:37:51,760
writer. Uh in that sense, they're no

5007
03:37:49,600 --> 03:37:53,840
different from some people read your

5008
03:37:51,760 --> 03:37:55,920
manuscript or your article before it's

5009
03:37:53,840 --> 03:37:58,319
published and give you feedback. A

5010
03:37:55,920 --> 03:38:00,239
critic is someone who reads your article

5011
03:37:58,319 --> 03:38:01,520
after it's published or your book and

5012
03:38:00,239 --> 03:38:04,160
gives you feedback. There's no

5013
03:38:01,520 --> 03:38:06,080
difference. One is private, one is

5014
03:38:04,160 --> 03:38:08,239
public, one you can do something about

5015
03:38:06,080 --> 03:38:10,399
in immediately and one you can do

5016
03:38:08,239 --> 03:38:12,319
something about in the long term. So

5017
03:38:10,399 --> 03:38:13,439
there are different forms of the same

5018
03:38:12,319 --> 03:38:17,040
thing.

5019
03:38:13,439 --> 03:38:20,880
um one is painful, one is helpful when

5020
03:38:17,040 --> 03:38:22,239
it's negative. Um so but they amount to

5021
03:38:20,880 --> 03:38:24,720
the same thing. They are opportunities

5022
03:38:22,239 --> 03:38:28,120
for you to examine, to introspect about

5023
03:38:24,720 --> 03:38:28,120
what you've done.

5024
03:38:31,520 --> 03:38:37,680
The mistake you make when you are

5025
03:38:34,000 --> 03:38:40,880
criticized is to think of your critic as

5026
03:38:37,680 --> 03:38:42,960
standing in for your audience. So you

5027
03:38:40,880 --> 03:38:45,200
think if one person criticizes you, it

5028
03:38:42,960 --> 03:38:48,239
means that everyone hates your piece.

5029
03:38:45,200 --> 03:38:50,479
It's not true. That's just one person.

5030
03:38:48,239 --> 03:38:52,800
The second mistake you make is you think

5031
03:38:50,479 --> 03:38:55,040
that anyone who was on the fence or

5032
03:38:52,800 --> 03:38:57,760
didn't know about your piece and who

5033
03:38:55,040 --> 03:38:59,120
reads the nasty critic will be convinced

5034
03:38:57,760 --> 03:39:01,200
that you've done something terrible.

5035
03:38:59,120 --> 03:39:04,160
They'll agree with the critic. Also

5036
03:39:01,200 --> 03:39:06,880
false. People disagree with critics as

5037
03:39:04,160 --> 03:39:09,520
much as they agree with them. In fact, I

5038
03:39:06,880 --> 03:39:11,920
think it is far more often the case that

5039
03:39:09,520 --> 03:39:13,760
someone reads some nasty thing that

5040
03:39:11,920 --> 03:39:15,680
someone has written and rolls their eyes

5041
03:39:13,760 --> 03:39:18,160
and says, "Oh my goodness, another nasty

5042
03:39:15,680 --> 03:39:21,279
person." The critic, if they are

5043
03:39:18,160 --> 03:39:23,840
unreasonably critical, does themselves a

5044
03:39:21,279 --> 03:39:25,920
disservice. They remove their own

5045
03:39:23,840 --> 03:39:28,080
legitimacy. They undermine their own

5046
03:39:25,920 --> 03:39:29,439
legitimacy. And readers pick that up.

5047
03:39:28,080 --> 03:39:32,560
They know what's going on. They're not

5048
03:39:29,439 --> 03:39:34,560
dumb. So you need to you know the

5049
03:39:32,560 --> 03:39:37,439
response of the if you feel you have

5050
03:39:34,560 --> 03:39:39,760
been treated unfairly by a critic

5051
03:39:37,439 --> 03:39:42,640
chances are most of the people who read

5052
03:39:39,760 --> 03:39:44,319
that same article will agree they'll

5053
03:39:42,640 --> 03:39:46,640
also say what is this person they got an

5054
03:39:44,319 --> 03:39:49,359
ax grind you know why are they like

5055
03:39:46,640 --> 03:39:52,319
being so nasty this is uncalled for

5056
03:39:49,359 --> 03:39:55,439
critical reception is not a unifier not

5057
03:39:52,319 --> 03:39:57,840
a universal signifier of a flaw in the

5058
03:39:55,439 --> 03:39:59,520
piece it is a unifi it is simply a

5059
03:39:57,840 --> 03:40:02,560
signifier of the opinion of the person

5060
03:39:59,520 --> 03:40:05,560
who wrote about the critical

5061
03:40:02,560 --> 03:40:05,560
review.

5062
03:40:15,359 --> 03:40:22,960
The way to keep your reader in mind as a

5063
03:40:19,359 --> 03:40:24,880
writer is first and foremost to be a

5064
03:40:22,960 --> 03:40:27,279
reader. And when I say that, I don't

5065
03:40:24,880 --> 03:40:30,000
just mean someone who reads, but I mean

5066
03:40:27,279 --> 03:40:32,479
someone who takes the task of reading

5067
03:40:30,000 --> 03:40:34,640
seriously. One of the things that drives

5068
03:40:32,479 --> 03:40:37,359
me crazy about

5069
03:40:34,640 --> 03:40:39,920
bad book reviewers is that bad book

5070
03:40:37,359 --> 03:40:42,319
reviewers are ones

5071
03:40:39,920 --> 03:40:45,520
who the question they're trying to

5072
03:40:42,319 --> 03:40:47,279
answer when they write their review is,

5073
03:40:45,520 --> 03:40:49,279
"If I were writing this book, how would

5074
03:40:47,279 --> 03:40:52,479
I have written it?"

5075
03:40:49,279 --> 03:40:54,880
And if the way the author wrote it

5076
03:40:52,479 --> 03:40:57,200
deviates from the way the reviewer would

5077
03:40:54,880 --> 03:41:00,160
have done it him or herself, the

5078
03:40:57,200 --> 03:41:02,880
reviewer gives the book bad review.

5079
03:41:00,160 --> 03:41:06,399
That's being a bad reader.

5080
03:41:02,880 --> 03:41:09,120
The good reader is the one who says,

5081
03:41:06,399 --> 03:41:11,520
"What did the author intend

5082
03:41:09,120 --> 03:41:14,479
when he or she was writing this book?"

5083
03:41:11,520 --> 03:41:16,000
And if you feel like the author lives up

5084
03:41:14,479 --> 03:41:18,479
to

5085
03:41:16,000 --> 03:41:21,439
the intention, his or her intention,

5086
03:41:18,479 --> 03:41:24,239
then the book is a success. Now,

5087
03:41:21,439 --> 03:41:27,279
discovering someone's intention, it's

5088
03:41:24,239 --> 03:41:30,479
not easy. It requires attention and work

5089
03:41:27,279 --> 03:41:32,160
and thought, and

5090
03:41:30,479 --> 03:41:35,600
it means you have to pause every now and

5091
03:41:32,160 --> 03:41:37,600
again and like reflect on what you read,

5092
03:41:35,600 --> 03:41:39,520
just read. It means that you maybe

5093
03:41:37,600 --> 03:41:41,600
shouldn't read in huge big gulps. Maybe

5094
03:41:39,520 --> 03:41:45,520
you should read in little

5095
03:41:41,600 --> 03:41:47,920
in little pieces so that you can um chew

5096
03:41:45,520 --> 03:41:50,319
over what you've just learned. Reading,

5097
03:41:47,920 --> 03:41:54,000
when you think about reading as a as as

5098
03:41:50,319 --> 03:41:57,600
a an act as consequential as writing,

5099
03:41:54,000 --> 03:42:00,319
it's not less an it's not a lesser act.

5100
03:41:57,600 --> 03:42:01,840
You don't read because you can't write

5101
03:42:00,319 --> 03:42:04,000
or you don't want to write or you want

5102
03:42:01,840 --> 03:42:06,720
to leave writing to others. Reading is

5103
03:42:04,000 --> 03:42:09,840
of is of equal importance to writing.

5104
03:42:06,720 --> 03:42:11,760
There is no writing without reading. You

5105
03:42:09,840 --> 03:42:13,760
wouldn't. Some people say I would write

5106
03:42:11,760 --> 03:42:15,040
I I write,

5107
03:42:13,760 --> 03:42:16,640
you know, even if no one reads it.

5108
03:42:15,040 --> 03:42:19,520
Nonsense.

5109
03:42:16,640 --> 03:42:21,200
No. If no one read stuff, no one would

5110
03:42:19,520 --> 03:42:24,160
write anything. These two acts, reading

5111
03:42:21,200 --> 03:42:27,920
and writing, are are uh symbiotic.

5112
03:42:24,160 --> 03:42:30,160
They're they are coupled. Um and uh to

5113
03:42:27,920 --> 03:42:33,160
do one well, requires doing the other

5114
03:42:30,160 --> 03:42:33,160
well.

5115
03:42:37,359 --> 03:42:42,880
The problem with writing criticism as

5116
03:42:40,160 --> 03:42:44,960
it's called is the word criticism.

5117
03:42:42,880 --> 03:42:46,960
So people

5118
03:42:44,960 --> 03:42:51,279
you know we call a film someone who

5119
03:42:46,960 --> 03:42:53,920
writes about film a film critic and the

5120
03:42:51,279 --> 03:42:57,840
the implicit assumption driven by that

5121
03:42:53,920 --> 03:42:59,760
word is that the job of the critic is to

5122
03:42:57,840 --> 03:43:03,359
criticize.

5123
03:42:59,760 --> 03:43:05,760
Um that's not true. The job of the film

5124
03:43:03,359 --> 03:43:08,239
critic is to appreciate. Sometimes in

5125
03:43:05,760 --> 03:43:10,560
appreciation, what we do is we point out

5126
03:43:08,239 --> 03:43:14,319
the things not that are not worthy of

5127
03:43:10,560 --> 03:43:16,160
our appreciation. But the real job is to

5128
03:43:14,319 --> 03:43:18,720
point out the things that are worthy of

5129
03:43:16,160 --> 03:43:20,479
our appreciation. There is no point to

5130
03:43:18,720 --> 03:43:22,960
that.

5131
03:43:20,479 --> 03:43:25,840
There's no point to being someone who

5132
03:43:22,960 --> 03:43:29,600
writes about other people's creations if

5133
03:43:25,840 --> 03:43:33,120
you're not enthusiastic about the world

5134
03:43:29,600 --> 03:43:34,880
that you're writing about. So when I the

5135
03:43:33,120 --> 03:43:36,560
thing I look for in a book reviewer that

5136
03:43:34,880 --> 03:43:37,920
I love,

5137
03:43:36,560 --> 03:43:40,960
there's a book reviewer for the New York

5138
03:43:37,920 --> 03:43:42,479
Times called Dwight Garner who is I just

5139
03:43:40,960 --> 03:43:44,560
adore him. I've never met him. I adore

5140
03:43:42,479 --> 03:43:46,000
him. Why do I adore him? Because he

5141
03:43:44,560 --> 03:43:48,160
gives you the sensation that he really

5142
03:43:46,000 --> 03:43:50,720
enjoys reading books. It's as simple as

5143
03:43:48,160 --> 03:43:52,800
that. and he looks for things in the

5144
03:43:50,720 --> 03:43:54,319
books that he writes about that made him

5145
03:43:52,800 --> 03:43:56,720
happy

5146
03:43:54,319 --> 03:43:59,840
and he doesn't think that his job is to

5147
03:43:56,720 --> 03:44:02,239
be a downer and is to seek out

5148
03:43:59,840 --> 03:44:04,160
criticism. One of the things seek out

5149
03:44:02,239 --> 03:44:05,520
reasons to be critical. One of the

5150
03:44:04,160 --> 03:44:07,600
things that you learn if you've written

5151
03:44:05,520 --> 03:44:09,920
a lot of

5152
03:44:07,600 --> 03:44:12,880
criticism is that being critical is the

5153
03:44:09,920 --> 03:44:16,080
easiest thing in the world. I could, you

5154
03:44:12,880 --> 03:44:19,199
know, if you asked me to do a a hit job

5155
03:44:16,080 --> 03:44:20,720
on War and Peace, I could do it.

5156
03:44:19,199 --> 03:44:22,319
I can write an article if you've never

5157
03:44:20,720 --> 03:44:23,760
read War in Peace before and the only

5158
03:44:22,319 --> 03:44:25,760
thing you've ever read is Malcolm's book

5159
03:44:23,760 --> 03:44:27,920
review of the greatest novel ever told.

5160
03:44:25,760 --> 03:44:31,600
I can make it sound like the worst piece

5161
03:44:27,920 --> 03:44:33,600
of trash. It's just not that hard to do.

5162
03:44:31,600 --> 03:44:35,680
The hard thing is for me to tell you the

5163
03:44:33,600 --> 03:44:37,199
interesting thing is why is this novel

5164
03:44:35,680 --> 03:44:40,239
great?

5165
03:44:37,199 --> 03:44:42,160
Right? That's that's where and that's

5166
03:44:40,239 --> 03:44:44,479
the memorable

5167
03:44:42,160 --> 03:44:46,960
that's what will stay with you and

5168
03:44:44,479 --> 03:44:49,120
that's what will make you want to

5169
03:44:46,960 --> 03:44:53,600
investigate art on your own. If someone

5170
03:44:49,120 --> 03:44:55,600
has shown you ways in which you can um

5171
03:44:53,600 --> 03:44:57,760
appreciate and reproduce a sense of

5172
03:44:55,600 --> 03:45:00,560
wonder in yourself

5173
03:44:57,760 --> 03:45:03,880
I think that's a much higher calling

5174
03:45:00,560 --> 03:45:03,880
for Radu.

5175
03:45:08,080 --> 03:45:14,800
So this is a passage from my first book,

5176
03:45:10,800 --> 03:45:18,000
The Tipping Point. And I was then

5177
03:45:14,800 --> 03:45:20,479
uh in part writing about crime, which is

5178
03:45:18,000 --> 03:45:22,800
continued to be an obsession of mine

5179
03:45:20,479 --> 03:45:25,760
over the years. In I think in every book

5180
03:45:22,800 --> 03:45:27,199
I've written, I've had

5181
03:45:25,760 --> 03:45:28,479
not every book, but almost every book

5182
03:45:27,199 --> 03:45:31,520
I've written, I've had some section

5183
03:45:28,479 --> 03:45:34,160
where I deal with crime. And in this

5184
03:45:31,520 --> 03:45:37,279
one, I'm talking about the why did crime

5185
03:45:34,160 --> 03:45:38,319
decline in New York City? And I talk

5186
03:45:37,279 --> 03:45:42,239
about something called the broken

5187
03:45:38,319 --> 03:45:44,800
windows theory. And I'm going to read my

5188
03:45:42,239 --> 03:45:48,239
description of this theory.

5189
03:45:44,800 --> 03:45:51,120
It's a theory that was uh

5190
03:45:48,239 --> 03:45:53,520
uh put forth by uh two criminologists,

5191
03:45:51,120 --> 03:45:56,080
James Q. Wilson and George Kelling. And

5192
03:45:53,520 --> 03:45:58,800
they Wilson and Kelling argue that crime

5193
03:45:56,080 --> 03:46:01,040
is the inevitable result of disorder. If

5194
03:45:58,800 --> 03:46:03,359
a window is broken and left unrepaired,

5195
03:46:01,040 --> 03:46:05,920
people walking by will conclude that no

5196
03:46:03,359 --> 03:46:07,439
one cares and no one is in charge. Soon

5197
03:46:05,920 --> 03:46:09,359
more windows will be broken and a sense

5198
03:46:07,439 --> 03:46:10,640
of anarchy will spread from the from the

5199
03:46:09,359 --> 03:46:12,880
building to the street on which it

5200
03:46:10,640 --> 03:46:15,840
faces, sending a signal that anything

5201
03:46:12,880 --> 03:46:18,160
goes. In a city, relatively minor

5202
03:46:15,840 --> 03:46:20,560
problems like graffiti, public disorder,

5203
03:46:18,160 --> 03:46:22,080
and aggressive panhandling, they write,

5204
03:46:20,560 --> 03:46:24,479
are all the equivalent of broken

5205
03:46:22,080 --> 03:46:28,160
windows, invitations to more serious

5206
03:46:24,479 --> 03:46:30,160
crimes. Then I go on and I quote from

5207
03:46:28,160 --> 03:46:33,439
and

5208
03:46:30,160 --> 03:46:34,880
I wrote this in 1999.

5209
03:46:33,439 --> 03:46:36,800
Since I've written it, several things

5210
03:46:34,880 --> 03:46:42,000
have happened. One is that we've come to

5211
03:46:36,800 --> 03:46:45,600
a much more nuanced understanding of

5212
03:46:42,000 --> 03:46:48,000
the broken windows idea. and two is

5213
03:46:45,600 --> 03:46:50,000
that's sort of how the field has changed

5214
03:46:48,000 --> 03:46:52,479
and the experience in New York for

5215
03:46:50,000 --> 03:46:56,000
example led people to the conclusion

5216
03:46:52,479 --> 03:46:58,800
that yes disorder leads to crime but

5217
03:46:56,000 --> 03:47:01,439
also cracking down too strongly on

5218
03:46:58,800 --> 03:47:04,319
disorder leads to a backlash that maybe

5219
03:47:01,439 --> 03:47:07,199
everything every bit is worse if you so

5220
03:47:04,319 --> 03:47:09,040
enrage your citizenry by harassing them

5221
03:47:07,199 --> 03:47:10,960
at every turn particularly if we're

5222
03:47:09,040 --> 03:47:12,800
talking about young black men in poor

5223
03:47:10,960 --> 03:47:14,239
neighborhoods then you haven't made the

5224
03:47:12,800 --> 03:47:18,160
problem better you've made it worse and

5225
03:47:14,239 --> 03:47:21,120
what we witnessed in Ferguson and in the

5226
03:47:18,160 --> 03:47:23,920
countless cases that have um captured

5227
03:47:21,120 --> 03:47:25,600
our rightfully captured our attention in

5228
03:47:23,920 --> 03:47:27,600
terms of police conduct in the last

5229
03:47:25,600 --> 03:47:30,800
couple of years. What we've seen is the

5230
03:47:27,600 --> 03:47:32,560
flip side of this. In the 1990s,

5231
03:47:30,800 --> 03:47:35,120
people's concern was there was too

5232
03:47:32,560 --> 03:47:38,160
little policing and we overcorrected.

5233
03:47:35,120 --> 03:47:40,880
And now many of the things that catch

5234
03:47:38,160 --> 03:47:43,120
our attention are examples of too much

5235
03:47:40,880 --> 03:47:45,120
policing when the police have gone too

5236
03:47:43,120 --> 03:47:46,960
far. When I wrote that, I didn't

5237
03:47:45,120 --> 03:47:50,239
anticipate

5238
03:47:46,960 --> 03:47:52,000
the backlash. I was writing that was

5239
03:47:50,239 --> 03:47:53,520
written at a particular moment in

5240
03:47:52,000 --> 03:47:56,479
history when we thought that our

5241
03:47:53,520 --> 03:47:59,520
problems were an absence were from a

5242
03:47:56,479 --> 03:48:02,800
passive police force or an absent police

5243
03:47:59,520 --> 03:48:04,960
force. And now we think now with 15

5244
03:48:02,800 --> 03:48:08,720
years under our belt we think of things

5245
03:48:04,960 --> 03:48:10,239
very differently. Um, I say this not to

5246
03:48:08,720 --> 03:48:12,319
tell you not to buy my book, which I

5247
03:48:10,239 --> 03:48:14,800
think you should still do, but uh, but

5248
03:48:12,319 --> 03:48:17,600
to say that when you write, writing,

5249
03:48:14,800 --> 03:48:21,840
writing is situated in a time and place

5250
03:48:17,600 --> 03:48:25,520
and you, um, you have to understand that

5251
03:48:21,840 --> 03:48:27,040
when you read something, when you read I

5252
03:48:25,520 --> 03:48:29,359
once wrote an article for the New Yorker

5253
03:48:27,040 --> 03:48:31,439
in which I was a long critique of

5254
03:48:29,359 --> 03:48:34,560
Tequilla Mockingbird,

5255
03:48:31,439 --> 03:48:37,120
um, a novel I do not like and have never

5256
03:48:34,560 --> 03:48:41,760
liked and I sort explain my reasons for

5257
03:48:37,120 --> 03:48:44,000
not liking it. And um part of also what

5258
03:48:41,760 --> 03:48:46,399
I was trying to do in that article was

5259
03:48:44,000 --> 03:48:49,520
situate To Kill a Mockingbird in its

5260
03:48:46,399 --> 03:48:51,040
time and place that in order to

5261
03:48:49,520 --> 03:48:53,120
understand where that novel comes from,

5262
03:48:51,040 --> 03:48:56,880
you have to understand what was going on

5263
03:48:53,120 --> 03:49:00,239
among white liberals in Alabama in the

5264
03:48:56,880 --> 03:49:04,080
1940s. How did they 1930s,4s, 50s, how

5265
03:49:00,239 --> 03:49:06,000
did they think, right? And my point was

5266
03:49:04,080 --> 03:49:07,840
that novel reads very differently when

5267
03:49:06,000 --> 03:49:10,319
you understand what was going on

5268
03:49:07,840 --> 03:49:12,880
racially in smalltown, Alabama in those

5269
03:49:10,319 --> 03:49:15,680
years than it does to us now. And that

5270
03:49:12,880 --> 03:49:17,439
we read into that story all kinds of

5271
03:49:15,680 --> 03:49:19,680
things from the present day that don't

5272
03:49:17,439 --> 03:49:22,319
really belong. So the first lesson is a

5273
03:49:19,680 --> 03:49:24,080
lesson about reading things. When you

5274
03:49:22,319 --> 03:49:26,960
read the tipping point, remember I wrote

5275
03:49:24,080 --> 03:49:29,439
it in 1999. Um but the second thing is

5276
03:49:26,960 --> 03:49:32,160
about writing things that as a writer

5277
03:49:29,439 --> 03:49:34,720
you will move on and you have to

5278
03:49:32,160 --> 03:49:37,279
understand you have to feel free to walk

5279
03:49:34,720 --> 03:49:39,120
away from things

5280
03:49:37,279 --> 03:49:41,840
that you once believed that you no

5281
03:49:39,120 --> 03:49:44,399
longer believe. I no longer have this

5282
03:49:41,840 --> 03:49:47,120
position. I now I now I think have a

5283
03:49:44,399 --> 03:49:48,720
much more nuanced and sophisticated

5284
03:49:47,120 --> 03:49:50,960
position. And in fact, in my newest

5285
03:49:48,720 --> 03:49:55,279
book, I'm going to return to this idea

5286
03:49:50,960 --> 03:49:56,960
and pinpoint where I think the truth

5287
03:49:55,279 --> 03:49:58,319
where I now believe the truth to lie,

5288
03:49:56,960 --> 03:50:05,600
which is different from where I believed

5289
03:49:58,319 --> 03:50:08,399
it lay back then. Um uh so that's a um

5290
03:50:05,600 --> 03:50:13,960
uh that's just a a reminder about

5291
03:50:08,399 --> 03:50:13,960
supplying the context to what you read.

5292
03:50:17,439 --> 03:50:22,640
So, if you're looking for some

5293
03:50:20,080 --> 03:50:25,359
ideas about how to develop as a writer,

5294
03:50:22,640 --> 03:50:27,279
um thought I'd share some suggestions.

5295
03:50:25,359 --> 03:50:29,600
Some of them I've mentioned before, but

5296
03:50:27,279 --> 03:50:32,399
one is to

5297
03:50:29,600 --> 03:50:35,279
um reconstruct someone's thought

5298
03:50:32,399 --> 03:50:37,920
processes. So

5299
03:50:35,279 --> 03:50:41,199
find a book that you really like

5300
03:50:37,920 --> 03:50:43,120
and a non-fiction book and then go to

5301
03:50:41,199 --> 03:50:45,840
the back once you finished and look at

5302
03:50:43,120 --> 03:50:48,880
all the books the sources that writer

5303
03:50:45,840 --> 03:50:50,880
used and start reading some of those

5304
03:50:48,880 --> 03:50:52,640
sources. Not all of them. It'll take you

5305
03:50:50,880 --> 03:50:54,560
forever, but pick ones that look

5306
03:50:52,640 --> 03:50:56,800
interesting or if they mention articles

5307
03:50:54,560 --> 03:50:58,720
they read or go and find the articles

5308
03:50:56,800 --> 03:51:01,920
and read them yourself. And so you're

5309
03:50:58,720 --> 03:51:04,720
putting yourself in the mind of

5310
03:51:01,920 --> 03:51:06,640
the writer and it'll give you insight as

5311
03:51:04,720 --> 03:51:08,560
to how that work that you like so much

5312
03:51:06,640 --> 03:51:12,560
was constructed

5313
03:51:08,560 --> 03:51:14,080
and you'll see how people used

5314
03:51:12,560 --> 03:51:17,920
sources

5315
03:51:14,080 --> 03:51:20,479
uh to build a a narrative particularly

5316
03:51:17,920 --> 03:51:23,199
you know if it's a book that's about the

5317
03:51:20,479 --> 03:51:25,359
past a historical book where no you know

5318
03:51:23,199 --> 03:51:28,880
where everyone's almost no one is alive

5319
03:51:25,359 --> 03:51:30,399
anymore like I read a book recently

5320
03:51:28,880 --> 03:51:34,239
about the Korea about a guy in the

5321
03:51:30,399 --> 03:51:36,560
Korean War. So you got to figure most of

5322
03:51:34,239 --> 03:51:38,880
the major characters in that story are

5323
03:51:36,560 --> 03:51:43,359
dead. So almost everything in the book

5324
03:51:38,880 --> 03:51:44,960
was some combination of relatives

5325
03:51:43,359 --> 03:51:46,720
of the people he's talking about who

5326
03:51:44,960 --> 03:51:50,239
remember

5327
03:51:46,720 --> 03:51:52,880
you know the person and and archival

5328
03:51:50,239 --> 03:51:55,840
stuff, newspapers,

5329
03:51:52,880 --> 03:51:58,560
memoirs, other histories. And it was

5330
03:51:55,840 --> 03:51:59,920
kind of fascinating to go through

5331
03:51:58,560 --> 03:52:02,960
when I was finished. I really like the

5332
03:51:59,920 --> 03:52:05,120
book to go through the endotes and sort

5333
03:52:02,960 --> 03:52:06,479
of see how did he do that, right? He

5334
03:52:05,120 --> 03:52:08,399
wrote an entire book about someone who

5335
03:52:06,479 --> 03:52:10,720
we couldn't talk to. That's sort of an

5336
03:52:08,399 --> 03:52:13,199
interesting process. And so that I would

5337
03:52:10,720 --> 03:52:15,840
recommend playing with that idea as a

5338
03:52:13,199 --> 03:52:18,160
way of getting insight as to how the how

5339
03:52:15,840 --> 03:52:21,800
really good writers work when they're

5340
03:52:18,160 --> 03:52:21,800
constructing a narrative.

5341
03:52:32,399 --> 03:52:39,600
I have read every novel by Lee Child. So

5342
03:52:37,040 --> 03:52:43,120
all the Jack Reacher novels and the Jack

5343
03:52:39,600 --> 03:52:46,000
Richard novels are super interesting

5344
03:52:43,120 --> 03:52:48,160
because for many reasons, but princely

5345
03:52:46,000 --> 03:52:51,359
because

5346
03:52:48,160 --> 03:52:53,439
he's interested. You think what they are

5347
03:52:51,359 --> 03:52:55,199
are

5348
03:52:53,439 --> 03:52:58,000
kind of written versions of action

5349
03:52:55,199 --> 03:53:00,239
movies. They're not. They're the

5350
03:52:58,000 --> 03:53:02,640
opposite. So, there's a lot of action.

5351
03:53:00,239 --> 03:53:04,960
Jack Reacher in the course of every Jack

5352
03:53:02,640 --> 03:53:06,399
Richard novel, usually there's two or

5353
03:53:04,960 --> 03:53:08,720
three moments where he beats up and

5354
03:53:06,399 --> 03:53:10,399
kills a bunch of people.

5355
03:53:08,720 --> 03:53:12,399
But

5356
03:53:10,399 --> 03:53:16,399
the thing that's interesting about those

5357
03:53:12,399 --> 03:53:19,840
moments is the way that Leech Child

5358
03:53:16,399 --> 03:53:22,960
describes the thought processes of Lee

5359
03:53:19,840 --> 03:53:27,680
of Jack Reacher, not the act themselves.

5360
03:53:22,960 --> 03:53:30,960
So it's not that there are some in noir

5361
03:53:27,680 --> 03:53:34,479
fiction or standard thrillers you read

5362
03:53:30,960 --> 03:53:37,920
it and it's like the guy two guys meet

5363
03:53:34,479 --> 03:53:40,880
in a dark alley and he punches some they

5364
03:53:37,920 --> 03:53:42,399
describe the action punch punch pulls a

5365
03:53:40,880 --> 03:53:44,960
knife

5366
03:53:42,399 --> 03:53:47,279
this and then they're done. The whole

5367
03:53:44,960 --> 03:53:52,319
thing about

5368
03:53:47,279 --> 03:53:55,199
Lee Child is that the key is the is he

5369
03:53:52,319 --> 03:53:58,800
lets you into Jack Reacher's thought

5370
03:53:55,199 --> 03:54:02,880
process before the action occurs.

5371
03:53:58,800 --> 03:54:05,199
So this massive preparation, so the

5372
03:54:02,880 --> 03:54:07,359
actual action is relatively brief, but

5373
03:54:05,199 --> 03:54:10,399
he'll do paragraphs,

5374
03:54:07,359 --> 03:54:13,359
pristian paragraphs on the on the inner

5375
03:54:10,399 --> 03:54:16,160
workings of Jack Reacher's mind as he

5376
03:54:13,359 --> 03:54:19,199
prepares to destroy, kill, maim, what

5377
03:54:16,160 --> 03:54:22,560
have you, the various bad guys he's um

5378
03:54:19,199 --> 03:54:27,120
he's encountering. And that is first of

5379
03:54:22,560 --> 03:54:29,520
all a massive innovation in that world.

5380
03:54:27,120 --> 03:54:32,720
I know because I read these novels

5381
03:54:29,520 --> 03:54:34,399
obsessively. Um, and super interesting.

5382
03:54:32,720 --> 03:54:35,840
You really That's what's drawing you in.

5383
03:54:34,399 --> 03:54:38,800
If you were if you think about those

5384
03:54:35,840 --> 03:54:41,120
books, they're now sold cajillions of

5385
03:54:38,800 --> 03:54:45,120
millions of them. They're all exactly

5386
03:54:41,120 --> 03:54:48,560
the same. Every every the plot of every

5387
03:54:45,120 --> 03:54:51,920
single one is the same, right? Minor

5388
03:54:48,560 --> 03:54:54,560
variations. So why do I among millions

5389
03:54:51,920 --> 03:54:57,040
keep reading them? The answer is because

5390
03:54:54,560 --> 03:55:01,120
we find that thing among other things.

5391
03:54:57,040 --> 03:55:04,000
We find that thing deeply fascinating to

5392
03:55:01,120 --> 03:55:06,720
be led into the mind of a highly

5393
03:55:04,000 --> 03:55:09,920
intelligent, highly calculating

5394
03:55:06,720 --> 03:55:13,600
essentially psychopath. Because let's be

5395
03:55:09,920 --> 03:55:16,080
clear, I once had as for fun try to

5396
03:55:13,600 --> 03:55:18,560
total up how many people Jack Reacher

5397
03:55:16,080 --> 03:55:20,160
has killed over the course of the 24

5398
03:55:18,560 --> 03:55:23,279
Jack Reacher novels. It's in the

5399
03:55:20,160 --> 03:55:25,359
hundreds. So anyone who's killed

5400
03:55:23,279 --> 03:55:27,680
hundreds of people outside the field of

5401
03:55:25,359 --> 03:55:29,840
combat is a psychopath. So we are

5402
03:55:27,680 --> 03:55:32,800
reading a novel about a psychopath as

5403
03:55:29,840 --> 03:55:35,840
hero. Why? Because we want to know.

5404
03:55:32,800 --> 03:55:39,600
We're fascinated by this the

5405
03:55:35,840 --> 03:55:41,680
psychopath's calculation of the angles,

5406
03:55:39,600 --> 03:55:43,920
the geometry, the physics, the

5407
03:55:41,680 --> 03:55:45,680
psychology, the what have you of

5408
03:55:43,920 --> 03:55:49,040
encountering a bad guy in a difficult

5409
03:55:45,680 --> 03:55:52,479
moment. And also the fact that

5410
03:55:49,040 --> 03:55:56,080
to to add kind of insult to injury, Jack

5411
03:55:52,479 --> 03:55:58,640
Reacher doesn't carry a gun. So in all

5412
03:55:56,080 --> 03:56:00,640
of this there ever invariably has to be

5413
03:55:58,640 --> 03:56:02,800
the calculation of how can he acquire a

5414
03:56:00,640 --> 03:56:05,439
gun before he gets shot himself, right?

5415
03:56:02,800 --> 03:56:07,120
So it's like it's like this it's a p,

5416
03:56:05,439 --> 03:56:10,000
you know, it's there his version of a

5417
03:56:07,120 --> 03:56:12,239
puzzle. He's constructed this question.

5418
03:56:10,000 --> 03:56:14,399
How on earth is Jack Reacher gonna

5419
03:56:12,239 --> 03:56:18,160
figure out how to name the guy in front

5420
03:56:14,399 --> 03:56:20,080
of him? And I'm gonna walk you through

5421
03:56:18,160 --> 03:56:22,800
the kind of internal mental and

5422
03:56:20,080 --> 03:56:25,840
emotional processes that predate the act

5423
03:56:22,800 --> 03:56:27,439
of the psychopath.

5424
03:56:25,840 --> 03:56:30,080
As someone who's interested in writing

5425
03:56:27,439 --> 03:56:32,640
about the life of the mind, I find this

5426
03:56:30,080 --> 03:56:35,840
riveting and so do you know countless

5427
03:56:32,640 --> 03:56:38,720
others. Uh so that's had a that idea

5428
03:56:35,840 --> 03:56:42,000
that you your the reader will happily go

5429
03:56:38,720 --> 03:56:43,920
along with paragraphs of essentially

5430
03:56:42,000 --> 03:56:47,120
introspection

5431
03:56:43,920 --> 03:56:50,319
as long as it's

5432
03:56:47,120 --> 03:56:54,640
novel and clever and is

5433
03:56:50,319 --> 03:56:57,760
deeply kind of fascinating and um

5434
03:56:54,640 --> 03:57:01,439
encouraging to me because I'd like to do

5435
03:56:57,760 --> 03:57:03,279
that you know in in my I would I would

5436
03:57:01,439 --> 03:57:06,239
like to do that but about non-fiction

5437
03:57:03,279 --> 03:57:09,760
characters to really to do an interview

5438
03:57:06,239 --> 03:57:11,520
such that when I represent someone a

5439
03:57:09,760 --> 03:57:15,359
character to you in one of my books or

5440
03:57:11,520 --> 03:57:16,960
articles that we can do that preparatory

5441
03:57:15,359 --> 03:57:19,760
step

5442
03:57:16,960 --> 03:57:24,600
walking through all of their their uh

5443
03:57:19,760 --> 03:57:24,600
introspective processes before they act.

5444
03:57:28,319 --> 03:57:33,439
So when you read

5445
03:57:30,960 --> 03:57:36,720
something written by Dave Epstein, what

5446
03:57:33,439 --> 03:57:38,800
you are struck by, you immediately he

5447
03:57:36,720 --> 03:57:41,199
communicates to you in the

5448
03:57:38,800 --> 03:57:42,640
sophistication and depth of his writing

5449
03:57:41,199 --> 03:57:45,840
just how much work he did. In other

5450
03:57:42,640 --> 03:57:47,840
words, you have full confidence

5451
03:57:45,840 --> 03:57:50,000
as a reader that he's covered all the

5452
03:57:47,840 --> 03:57:52,880
bases. You know he's not pulling a fast

5453
03:57:50,000 --> 03:57:55,359
one on you. You know he didn't like fail

5454
03:57:52,880 --> 03:57:56,880
to read this part of the literature. you

5455
03:57:55,359 --> 03:57:58,720
know, he didn't track down this one

5456
03:57:56,880 --> 03:58:00,800
person who he has to track down. He's

5457
03:57:58,720 --> 03:58:03,680
not playing any kind of game with you

5458
03:58:00,800 --> 03:58:06,160
and kind of writing his way around the

5459
03:58:03,680 --> 03:58:09,120
problem. And I think that's an important

5460
03:58:06,160 --> 03:58:11,520
thing to remember that viewer readers

5461
03:58:09,120 --> 03:58:13,760
are not dumb.

5462
03:58:11,520 --> 03:58:16,720
So the one of the things that you're

5463
03:58:13,760 --> 03:58:18,880
doing if you're reading something as you

5464
03:58:16,720 --> 03:58:21,040
are reading it is there's a little part

5465
03:58:18,880 --> 03:58:23,680
in the back of your brain your kind of

5466
03:58:21,040 --> 03:58:28,239
internal critic who is asking the

5467
03:58:23,680 --> 03:58:29,920
question is this worth it? So my little

5468
03:58:28,239 --> 03:58:31,760
Malcolm critic in the back of my head

5469
03:58:29,920 --> 03:58:34,640
says to me as I read something or watch

5470
03:58:31,760 --> 03:58:35,920
a movie my little Malcolm critic says

5471
03:58:34,640 --> 03:58:37,760
there are an infinite number of things

5472
03:58:35,920 --> 03:58:40,720
you could do with your time. Your time

5473
03:58:37,760 --> 03:58:42,960
is limited. Is this a good use? And when

5474
03:58:40,720 --> 03:58:44,800
my little Malcolm critic says, "Oh, come

5475
03:58:42,960 --> 03:58:47,279
on." That's when I close the book or

5476
03:58:44,800 --> 03:58:50,080
turn off the TV. Right? The way to

5477
03:58:47,279 --> 03:58:53,520
silence that little critic in your

5478
03:58:50,080 --> 03:58:56,080
audience, is to communicate immediately

5479
03:58:53,520 --> 03:58:57,439
to your reader that you know what you're

5480
03:58:56,080 --> 03:58:59,680
talking about, that you've done your

5481
03:58:57,439 --> 03:59:01,359
homework, that you've covered your

5482
03:58:59,680 --> 03:59:05,520
bases, that you've thought this thing

5483
03:59:01,359 --> 03:59:08,160
through. David's work is compelling.

5484
03:59:05,520 --> 03:59:09,600
Not he's a very good writer but his work

5485
03:59:08,160 --> 03:59:11,920
is not compelling because he's a great

5486
03:59:09,600 --> 03:59:14,399
writer. It's compelling because he's s

5487
03:59:11,920 --> 03:59:16,239
that critic has nothing to say. The

5488
03:59:14,399 --> 03:59:18,640
critic is sitting there and saying I I

5489
03:59:16,239 --> 03:59:21,680
got no problems whatsoever with this. Go

5490
03:59:18,640 --> 03:59:24,640
right ahead. Right. I worry in sometimes

5491
03:59:21,680 --> 03:59:26,479
in my writing that the critics halfway

5492
03:59:24,640 --> 03:59:28,479
through

5493
03:59:26,479 --> 03:59:30,560
uh says, "Wait a minute. Malcolm did

5494
03:59:28,479 --> 03:59:31,600
four interviews and interviewed four

5495
03:59:30,560 --> 03:59:33,920
people and he should have interviewed

5496
03:59:31,600 --> 03:59:36,880
eight. I'm wondering whether you should

5497
03:59:33,920 --> 03:59:39,760
go elsewhere. That's my anxiety as a

5498
03:59:36,880 --> 03:59:41,439
writer that I don't produce that same

5499
03:59:39,760 --> 03:59:45,160
sense of certainty that someone like

5500
03:59:41,439 --> 03:59:45,160
David Epstein does.

5501
03:59:49,199 --> 03:59:53,279
Initially, I think

5502
03:59:51,600 --> 03:59:54,880
when you're starting out as a writer,

5503
03:59:53,279 --> 03:59:56,399
it's not useful to dwell on your

5504
03:59:54,880 --> 03:59:59,840
shortcomings. You should address them as

5505
03:59:56,399 --> 04:00:01,520
opposed to avoid them. I only say that I

5506
03:59:59,840 --> 04:00:03,840
I'm aware of my shortcomings and act

5507
04:00:01,520 --> 04:00:07,920
accordingly because I'm old and I'm

5508
04:00:03,840 --> 04:00:10,560
unlikely I'm unlikely to change

5509
04:00:07,920 --> 04:00:12,560
dramatically at my point at my my age.

5510
04:00:10,560 --> 04:00:15,840
But I do remember

5511
04:00:12,560 --> 04:00:19,520
reading 10 years or so. I began to read

5512
04:00:15,840 --> 04:00:21,840
a lot of Michael Lewis

5513
04:00:19,520 --> 04:00:24,479
15 years ago and I went through a period

5514
04:00:21,840 --> 04:00:26,720
where I very consciously tried to write

5515
04:00:24,479 --> 04:00:28,640
like him because I was aware that he was

5516
04:00:26,720 --> 04:00:30,960
doing something that I had not been

5517
04:00:28,640 --> 04:00:34,080
doing and perhaps wasn't nearly as good

5518
04:00:30,960 --> 04:00:35,840
as doing which is his examination of

5519
04:00:34,080 --> 04:00:37,680
character

5520
04:00:35,840 --> 04:00:40,399
was really amazing. If you read a

5521
04:00:37,680 --> 04:00:42,000
Michael Lewis book, you really do feel

5522
04:00:40,399 --> 04:00:44,880
like you know all of the characters by

5523
04:00:42,000 --> 04:00:48,399
the end. Um, and I I do not think that

5524
04:00:44,880 --> 04:00:50,560
was true of my own writing. And so I

5525
04:00:48,399 --> 04:00:53,840
that was a shortcoming that I chose to

5526
04:00:50,560 --> 04:00:56,239
address. Um, now why address that one

5527
04:00:53,840 --> 04:00:58,720
and not others? One was one reason was

5528
04:00:56,239 --> 04:01:01,279
that I felt I could learn that it wasn't

5529
04:00:58,720 --> 04:01:05,199
outside of my abilities to learn to be a

5530
04:01:01,279 --> 04:01:06,640
better uh do better character studies.

5531
04:01:05,199 --> 04:01:09,840
And two, I felt my writing would be

5532
04:01:06,640 --> 04:01:12,960
enormously improved by that. Um, and I

5533
04:01:09,840 --> 04:01:16,080
was, to be honest, jealous that when I

5534
04:01:12,960 --> 04:01:17,840
read his books, I was like living

5535
04:01:16,080 --> 04:01:19,359
alongside his characters, but when I

5536
04:01:17,840 --> 04:01:21,520
read my own writing, I never had that

5537
04:01:19,359 --> 04:01:25,199
feeling. Um, and I wanted that feeling

5538
04:01:21,520 --> 04:01:26,880
in my readers as well. Am I at Michael

5539
04:01:25,199 --> 04:01:28,960
Lewis's level? No, of course not. I'm

5540
04:01:26,880 --> 04:01:32,080
not I'll never be that good, but I'm

5541
04:01:28,960 --> 04:01:33,439
better. I do feel like in the last 10

5542
04:01:32,080 --> 04:01:35,760
years, my writing has had a better

5543
04:01:33,439 --> 04:01:40,000
appreciation of character. He clearly

5544
04:01:35,760 --> 04:01:43,520
spends profitably spends days and days

5545
04:01:40,000 --> 04:01:45,120
and weeks with his main characters.

5546
04:01:43,520 --> 04:01:47,040
It could I could no more do that than I

5547
04:01:45,120 --> 04:01:50,800
can go to the moon. They would get sick

5548
04:01:47,040 --> 04:01:52,000
of me. I would get sick of them. And by

5549
04:01:50,800 --> 04:01:54,800
the way, the first one is more important

5550
04:01:52,000 --> 04:01:56,000
than the second one. It's not just that

5551
04:01:54,800 --> 04:01:57,600
you have to want to hang out with

5552
04:01:56,000 --> 04:01:59,520
someone. They have to want to hang out

5553
04:01:57,600 --> 04:02:02,160
with you. Everyone wants to hang out

5554
04:01:59,520 --> 04:02:04,640
with Michael Lewis. He has written, I

5555
04:02:02,160 --> 04:02:06,399
don't know, 12 books. In each of those

5556
04:02:04,640 --> 04:02:09,120
books, he has spent an extraordinary

5557
04:02:06,399 --> 04:02:13,199
amount of time with the lead characters.

5558
04:02:09,120 --> 04:02:15,840
So, we now have a database of dozens of

5559
04:02:13,199 --> 04:02:18,399
randomly selected Americans, busy,

5560
04:02:15,840 --> 04:02:21,359
famous, complicated, randomly selected

5561
04:02:18,399 --> 04:02:24,000
Americans who are content to let a

5562
04:02:21,359 --> 04:02:26,479
stranger follow them around for weeks.

5563
04:02:24,000 --> 04:02:28,880
That is an extraordinary testament to

5564
04:02:26,479 --> 04:02:30,880
Michael Lewis, right? that he conduct

5565
04:02:28,880 --> 04:02:32,880
people I don't think people would let me

5566
04:02:30,880 --> 04:02:36,080
follow them around for weeks. So he

5567
04:02:32,880 --> 04:02:39,880
clearly has something going on that's

5568
04:02:36,080 --> 04:02:39,880
worthy of admiration.

5569
04:02:45,359 --> 04:02:50,399
Every single profession has a category

5570
04:02:47,840 --> 04:02:52,880
of people who are revered by insiders

5571
04:02:50,399 --> 04:02:54,880
but not by outsiders.

5572
04:02:52,880 --> 04:02:57,359
Uh there are musicians, musicians,

5573
04:02:54,880 --> 04:03:00,319
architects, architects, filmmakers,

5574
04:02:57,359 --> 04:03:02,800
filmmakers, you know, filmmakers are

5575
04:03:00,319 --> 04:03:04,800
obsessed with, you know, I don't even

5576
04:03:02,800 --> 04:03:07,600
know. I mean, there's a whole list of

5577
04:03:04,800 --> 04:03:09,760
like French and German filmmakers who

5578
04:03:07,600 --> 04:03:13,199
everyone adors, but no one else watches

5579
04:03:09,760 --> 04:03:14,239
them. There are musicians who I don't

5580
04:03:13,199 --> 04:03:17,199
know their names because I'm not a

5581
04:03:14,239 --> 04:03:19,359
musician, but I have talked to musicians

5582
04:03:17,199 --> 04:03:21,840
who will say that I talked to one guy

5583
04:03:19,359 --> 04:03:24,239
once who's who argued that D'Angelo is

5584
04:03:21,840 --> 04:03:26,239
the musician's musician.

5585
04:03:24,239 --> 04:03:29,920
Musicians are obsessed with D'Angelo.

5586
04:03:26,239 --> 04:03:33,439
Anyway, Janet Malcolm is that figure for

5587
04:03:29,920 --> 04:03:36,800
writers. She is still active, but in the

5588
04:03:33,439 --> 04:03:41,040
she wrote a lot in the kind of 90s and

5589
04:03:36,800 --> 04:03:44,880
as she's primarily a profileist.

5590
04:03:41,040 --> 04:03:47,199
and she has written books about she

5591
04:03:44,880 --> 04:03:49,040
wrote a book about someone who was

5592
04:03:47,199 --> 04:03:51,199
trying to challenge the Freudian legacy

5593
04:03:49,040 --> 04:03:54,880
called in the Freud archives. She wrote

5594
04:03:51,199 --> 04:03:56,720
a book about a a guy called Joe McInness

5595
04:03:54,880 --> 04:03:58,880
who was a kind of non-fiction writer

5596
04:03:56,720 --> 04:04:01,680
who'd written a kind of problematic book

5597
04:03:58,880 --> 04:04:03,840
that she wanted to she wrote a book she

5598
04:04:01,680 --> 04:04:07,600
writes about writers and literary

5599
04:04:03,840 --> 04:04:10,080
figures and

5600
04:04:07,600 --> 04:04:12,960
every expectation you have going in is

5601
04:04:10,080 --> 04:04:15,199
that this can't be interesting and every

5602
04:04:12,960 --> 04:04:17,920
one of your expectations is violated

5603
04:04:15,199 --> 04:04:20,080
because it's always interesting. She I

5604
04:04:17,920 --> 04:04:23,520
would read her shopping lists at this

5605
04:04:20,080 --> 04:04:25,359
point. She just has a way of

5606
04:04:23,520 --> 04:04:30,640
soaking

5607
04:04:25,359 --> 04:04:34,399
soaking in someone's work and life and

5608
04:04:30,640 --> 04:04:39,120
um interpreting it and but almost with

5609
04:04:34,399 --> 04:04:43,279
an edge. I mean she has destroyed people

5610
04:04:39,120 --> 04:04:45,680
in her in this kind of calm methodical.

5611
04:04:43,279 --> 04:04:47,520
She's in no hurry. you wait for the

5612
04:04:45,680 --> 04:04:50,160
guillotine to drop, for the blade to

5613
04:04:47,520 --> 04:04:52,720
drop when you're reading her. And by the

5614
04:04:50,160 --> 04:04:54,319
end, you just feel like there's if she

5615
04:04:52,720 --> 04:04:57,760
ever did that to me, I would never get

5616
04:04:54,319 --> 04:05:01,120
out of bed again. Um, so she is a kind

5617
04:04:57,760 --> 04:05:02,960
of and I don't know why she's not more

5618
04:05:01,120 --> 04:05:05,359
why she's only a writer's writer and not

5619
04:05:02,960 --> 04:05:08,720
a non-riter's writer. She deserves to be

5620
04:05:05,359 --> 04:05:10,319
way way way more popular than she is.

5621
04:05:08,720 --> 04:05:13,120
She tends to write about people who have

5622
04:05:10,319 --> 04:05:16,800
themselves written a lot. and her

5623
04:05:13,120 --> 04:05:20,319
ability to in to extract their character

5624
04:05:16,800 --> 04:05:23,680
and personality and motivations from

5625
04:05:20,319 --> 04:05:25,920
their writing. It's kind of amazing. And

5626
04:05:23,680 --> 04:05:27,520
she's the one

5627
04:05:25,920 --> 04:05:29,680
I also don't think I can do what she

5628
04:05:27,520 --> 04:05:32,560
does, but she's the one who I think I

5629
04:05:29,680 --> 04:05:34,800
understand what she's doing

5630
04:05:32,560 --> 04:05:36,479
more than I I don't understand how

5631
04:05:34,800 --> 04:05:38,319
Michael Lewis does what he does, but I

5632
04:05:36,479 --> 04:05:42,160
understand what how I understand how she

5633
04:05:38,319 --> 04:05:44,000
does it. I can't duplicate it, but

5634
04:05:42,160 --> 04:05:46,080
there's clearly an extraordinary amount

5635
04:05:44,000 --> 04:05:49,520
of reflection

5636
04:05:46,080 --> 04:05:52,520
that is going on um prior to the act of

5637
04:05:49,520 --> 04:05:52,520
writing.

5638
04:05:57,040 --> 04:06:03,439
There's a principle in psychology called

5639
04:06:00,640 --> 04:06:06,239
the other mind's problem. And the other

5640
04:06:03,439 --> 04:06:09,840
mind's problem is the problem that a

5641
04:06:06,239 --> 04:06:12,960
child faces when he or she first comes

5642
04:06:09,840 --> 04:06:15,600
into the world. In the very beginning, a

5643
04:06:12,960 --> 04:06:18,080
child assumes that the contents

5644
04:06:15,600 --> 04:06:20,640
of their own mind is the same as the

5645
04:06:18,080 --> 04:06:22,800
contents of everyone else's mind. If a

5646
04:06:20,640 --> 04:06:25,760
child wants a cracker, the child assumes

5647
04:06:22,800 --> 04:06:28,160
that his mom wants a cracker. He doesn't

5648
04:06:25,760 --> 04:06:31,199
he can't make a distinction. But there's

5649
04:06:28,160 --> 04:06:33,840
a certain point, a crucial point in the

5650
04:06:31,199 --> 04:06:37,120
development of a child when it suddenly

5651
04:06:33,840 --> 04:06:39,439
occurs to him or her that if he wants a

5652
04:06:37,120 --> 04:06:41,760
cracker, it doesn't necessarily follow

5653
04:06:39,439 --> 04:06:43,920
that his mom wants a cracker. That is

5654
04:06:41,760 --> 04:06:46,319
when a child develops a theory of other

5655
04:06:43,920 --> 04:06:48,399
minds, right? That people have minds

5656
04:06:46,319 --> 04:06:51,040
different from his own. And it's a

5657
04:06:48,399 --> 04:06:52,880
crucial point in development. And a a

5658
04:06:51,040 --> 04:06:55,279
lot of what a 2-year-old does when a

5659
04:06:52,880 --> 04:06:57,760
2-year-old is being terrible is a

5660
04:06:55,279 --> 04:07:00,160
2-year-old is simply experimenting with

5661
04:06:57,760 --> 04:07:01,840
this new insight that the reason the

5662
04:07:00,160 --> 04:07:05,040
2-year-old does something outrageous and

5663
04:07:01,840 --> 04:07:07,840
then looks at his mother or father is

5664
04:07:05,040 --> 04:07:09,840
that he's so delighted by the notion

5665
04:07:07,840 --> 04:07:11,279
that his father and mother think

5666
04:07:09,840 --> 04:07:13,600
differently than he does. It's never

5667
04:07:11,279 --> 04:07:15,920
occurred to him to that point. And I

5668
04:07:13,600 --> 04:07:18,000
think that it's not just two-year-olds

5669
04:07:15,920 --> 04:07:21,040
who are fascinated with the discovery of

5670
04:07:18,000 --> 04:07:23,680
other minds. this marvelous, incredible

5671
04:07:21,040 --> 04:07:24,800
insight that every single human being on

5672
04:07:23,680 --> 04:07:27,600
the planet has something different going

5673
04:07:24,800 --> 04:07:30,720
on inside their head. I think that we

5674
04:07:27,600 --> 04:07:34,800
all are and that a lot of what a lot of

5675
04:07:30,720 --> 04:07:38,560
what makes us brings us pleasure in

5676
04:07:34,800 --> 04:07:42,399
reading or in writing or in the act of

5677
04:07:38,560 --> 04:07:45,439
engagement with all sorts of art is a

5678
04:07:42,399 --> 04:07:46,880
version of the other mind's discovery.

5679
04:07:45,439 --> 04:07:48,640
It is the pleasure we get in

5680
04:07:46,880 --> 04:07:50,720
investigating the contents of someone

5681
04:07:48,640 --> 04:07:53,920
else's mind and being reminded once

5682
04:07:50,720 --> 04:07:56,560
again how amazing it is that you don't

5683
04:07:53,920 --> 04:07:59,199
think like me. Right? So, I wanted to

5684
04:07:56,560 --> 04:08:02,080
read something that I wrote on this as

5685
04:07:59,199 --> 04:08:03,600
it as it pertains to writing and then

5686
04:08:02,080 --> 04:08:06,319
talk a little bit about that because I

5687
04:08:03,600 --> 04:08:09,040
goes to the heart of why I do what I do

5688
04:08:06,319 --> 04:08:10,880
because I think very explicitly about

5689
04:08:09,040 --> 04:08:13,840
the other mind's question when I'm

5690
04:08:10,880 --> 04:08:15,600
writing.

5691
04:08:13,840 --> 04:08:17,920
And I'm reading this selection from the

5692
04:08:15,600 --> 04:08:19,439
introduction to my book, What the Dog

5693
04:08:17,920 --> 04:08:22,160
Saw, which you should all buy in

5694
04:08:19,439 --> 04:08:24,560
triplicate. And I start by talking about

5695
04:08:22,160 --> 04:08:26,720
this two-year-old thing.

5696
04:08:24,560 --> 04:08:28,479
Why is a 2-year-old terrible? Because

5697
04:08:26,720 --> 04:08:30,800
she is systematically testing the

5698
04:08:28,479 --> 04:08:32,640
fascinating and to her utterly novel

5699
04:08:30,800 --> 04:08:34,319
notion that something that gives her

5700
04:08:32,640 --> 04:08:36,319
pleasure might not actually give someone

5701
04:08:34,319 --> 04:08:38,800
else pleasure. And the truth is that as

5702
04:08:36,319 --> 04:08:40,319
adults, we never lose that fascination.

5703
04:08:38,800 --> 04:08:41,840
What is the first thing that we want to

5704
04:08:40,319 --> 04:08:44,319
know when we meet someone who is a

5705
04:08:41,840 --> 04:08:47,040
doctor at a social occasion? It isn't

5706
04:08:44,319 --> 04:08:49,120
what do you do? We know sort of what a

5707
04:08:47,040 --> 04:08:50,880
doctor does. Instead, we want to know

5708
04:08:49,120 --> 04:08:53,920
what it means to be with sick people all

5709
04:08:50,880 --> 04:08:56,160
day long. We want to know what it feels

5710
04:08:53,920 --> 04:08:57,600
like to be a doctor because we're quite

5711
04:08:56,160 --> 04:08:59,120
sure that it doesn't feel at all like

5712
04:08:57,600 --> 04:09:02,560
what it means to sit at a computer all

5713
04:08:59,120 --> 04:09:05,760
day long or teach school or sell cars.

5714
04:09:02,560 --> 04:09:07,840
Such questions are not dumb or obvious.

5715
04:09:05,760 --> 04:09:10,160
Curiosity about the interior life of

5716
04:09:07,840 --> 04:09:12,880
other people's day-to-day work is one of

5717
04:09:10,160 --> 04:09:15,359
the most fundamental of human impulses.

5718
04:09:12,880 --> 04:09:17,120
And in that same impulse is what led to

5719
04:09:15,359 --> 04:09:18,640
the writing that you now hold in your

5720
04:09:17,120 --> 04:09:22,560
hands.

5721
04:09:18,640 --> 04:09:25,359
That's what my writing is about and

5722
04:09:22,560 --> 04:09:27,600
that's what I think

5723
04:09:25,359 --> 04:09:30,399
almost all good non-fiction writing is

5724
04:09:27,600 --> 04:09:33,840
about. It is giving us a window into

5725
04:09:30,399 --> 04:09:35,840
other people's hearts and souls and

5726
04:09:33,840 --> 04:09:39,840
minds. In that sense, it's different

5727
04:09:35,840 --> 04:09:42,479
from some forms of art which are about

5728
04:09:39,840 --> 04:09:45,600
giving us a window into

5729
04:09:42,479 --> 04:09:48,880
the artist's mind. Right? You go and see

5730
04:09:45,600 --> 04:09:51,359
a Picasso, you are seeing, you're

5731
04:09:48,880 --> 04:09:54,560
getting some glimpse of the contents of

5732
04:09:51,359 --> 04:09:56,880
his brain. So it's a so Picasso's work

5733
04:09:54,560 --> 04:09:59,199
as an artist is to represent himself to

5734
04:09:56,880 --> 04:10:00,640
the world. That's not what a non-fiction

5735
04:09:59,199 --> 04:10:04,160
writer does. I mean, it's what a

5736
04:10:00,640 --> 04:10:06,880
memorist does or a an autobiographical

5737
04:10:04,160 --> 04:10:09,120
writer does. But in the main, the kind

5738
04:10:06,880 --> 04:10:11,760
of work that people like myself does is

5739
04:10:09,120 --> 04:10:14,800
not about representing the contents of

5740
04:10:11,760 --> 04:10:17,920
our own mind to our audience. It is

5741
04:10:14,800 --> 04:10:19,920
going out and finding someone else and

5742
04:10:17,920 --> 04:10:24,080
inhabiting their world and representing

5743
04:10:19,920 --> 04:10:27,840
it to readers. And that is

5744
04:10:24,080 --> 04:10:30,880
it's odd to use this phrase, but that's

5745
04:10:27,840 --> 04:10:33,279
a selfless act. Um, it's part of what

5746
04:10:30,880 --> 04:10:36,960
has drawn me to writing that writing is

5747
04:10:33,279 --> 04:10:39,680
an act of service. It's a it's a and

5748
04:10:36,960 --> 04:10:41,680
it's also an empathetic act. It is

5749
04:10:39,680 --> 04:10:43,920
teaching us what goes on in other

5750
04:10:41,680 --> 04:10:45,760
people's minds. And without having some

5751
04:10:43,920 --> 04:10:47,120
understanding of what goes on in other

5752
04:10:45,760 --> 04:10:51,040
people's minds, you can't be fully

5753
04:10:47,120 --> 04:10:53,439
human. You will always be you'll be

5754
04:10:51,040 --> 04:10:56,720
you'll be lost forever on some

5755
04:10:53,439 --> 04:10:58,640
narcissistic island. And you'll have no

5756
04:10:56,720 --> 04:11:02,319
ability at all to kind of transcend your

5757
04:10:58,640 --> 04:11:04,160
own experience. No ability at all to uh

5758
04:11:02,319 --> 04:11:06,800
to see something from someone else's

5759
04:11:04,160 --> 04:11:08,800
perspective, to develop sympathy for

5760
04:11:06,800 --> 04:11:10,960
another position, to empathize with

5761
04:11:08,800 --> 04:11:13,040
another's plight or with another's

5762
04:11:10,960 --> 04:11:15,040
genius. I mean, all of the things that

5763
04:11:13,040 --> 04:11:18,640
are

5764
04:11:15,040 --> 04:11:22,640
that are constituent, I think, of

5765
04:11:18,640 --> 04:11:25,279
um living a fully realized life spring

5766
04:11:22,640 --> 04:11:28,239
from the ability to go outside your own

5767
04:11:25,279 --> 04:11:29,680
experience. And how do we do that? How

5768
04:11:28,239 --> 04:11:32,560
do we learn to do that? We learn to do

5769
04:11:29,680 --> 04:11:34,000
that through stories. Um we learn to do

5770
04:11:32,560 --> 04:11:36,720
that through fiction and we learn to do

5771
04:11:34,000 --> 04:11:40,720
that through non-fiction, which

5772
04:11:36,720 --> 04:11:44,080
uh represents the world to you um as it

5773
04:11:40,720 --> 04:11:46,880
is. I'm not changing and altering and

5774
04:11:44,080 --> 04:11:49,279
embellishing on the picture I'm giving

5775
04:11:46,880 --> 04:11:53,359
of other people's lives. I'm trying to

5776
04:11:49,279 --> 04:11:56,800
be as close as possible to the truth.

5777
04:11:53,359 --> 04:11:59,840
It's why when I said when I do a profile

5778
04:11:56,800 --> 04:12:03,439
of someone, I want them to be when they

5779
04:11:59,840 --> 04:12:05,120
read it to be grateful that they

5780
04:12:03,439 --> 04:12:07,199
spoke to me, that they spent time with

5781
04:12:05,120 --> 04:12:10,399
me. I don't want them to say I regret

5782
04:12:07,199 --> 04:12:12,319
it. And why is that so important to me?

5783
04:12:10,399 --> 04:12:14,880
because I am trying to represent their

5784
04:12:12,319 --> 04:12:17,279
mind to the world. And if they read what

5785
04:12:14,880 --> 04:12:19,199
I wrote and regret talking to me, it

5786
04:12:17,279 --> 04:12:22,000
means I failed.

5787
04:12:19,199 --> 04:12:23,680
You know, doesn't mean that I've been

5788
04:12:22,000 --> 04:12:27,120
no nonsense and tough and a truth

5789
04:12:23,680 --> 04:12:29,040
teller. No, I failed. I didn't I didn't

5790
04:12:27,120 --> 04:12:31,520
I took a peek inside their mind and I

5791
04:12:29,040 --> 04:12:34,080
didn't get it right. I was so wrong that

5792
04:12:31,520 --> 04:12:37,600
they looked at the portrait and they

5793
04:12:34,080 --> 04:12:39,199
said, "That's not me." Right? And if the

5794
04:12:37,600 --> 04:12:40,880
profileist

5795
04:12:39,199 --> 04:12:42,239
gets that kind of reaction from the

5796
04:12:40,880 --> 04:12:44,960
person they've profiled, they have

5797
04:12:42,239 --> 04:12:47,920
failed. They you want them to say that

5798
04:12:44,960 --> 04:12:50,479
is me. Or even better, that is a version

5799
04:12:47,920 --> 04:12:53,520
of me that I've never seen before, but I

5800
04:12:50,479 --> 04:12:55,359
think you've I think it's true. I think

5801
04:12:53,520 --> 04:12:58,800
you've revealed something to me about

5802
04:12:55,359 --> 04:13:01,840
myself. That's the greatest of all

5803
04:12:58,800 --> 04:13:03,840
reactions a writer can get. I want to

5804
04:13:01,840 --> 04:13:06,319
thank you all for watching. I hope you

5805
04:13:03,840 --> 04:13:07,840
found this as fun as I have. And if you

5806
04:13:06,319 --> 04:13:10,640
are a reader or writer, I wish you all

5807
04:13:07,840 --> 04:13:13,880
the best in all of your future work.

5808
04:13:10,640 --> 04:13:13,880
Thank you.